The more I read the Bible apart from WTS publications the more confusion I uncover in WTS teachings.
And, I hope, greater clarity for you. Without the WTS trappings, the bible makes a lot more sense.
Romans 8
by confused and lost 32 Replies latest watchtower bible
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jgnat
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Doug Mason
I would like to take the next step with Romans 4:13.
Paul is not speaking about "THE Law" (Pentateuch or the Hebrew Scriptures). The word "law" (nomos) does NOT have the definite article ("the"). Paul is comparing "works of obedience" against "faith".
No amount of a man's obedience is sufficient, only Christ's obedience is adequate. His prefect obedience is assigned to the faithful as a gift, not as the result of works ("law"). Salvation is a gift, it cannot be earned, as a wage.
Now read the context of Romans (NIV), which is hard on the heels of the worth of circumcision:
"It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all."
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JosephMalik
Paul is not speaking about "THE Law" (Pentateuch or the Hebrew Scriptures). The word "law" (nomos) does NOT have the definite article ("the"). Paul is comparing "works of obedience" against "faith".
Doug Mason,
Sure it was as this is the context of Romans where Paul also said:
Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) . . . 17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
His use of circumcision in chapter 4 was just one of the ways that he made reference to this Law as it was the most visible physical indicator of their obedience to it and was being forced upon such Gentiles. Context determines what is meant NOT use of the definite article as if it’s use was mandatory and proof. It is this struggle with keeping the Law between Jewish and Gentile believers that filled most of Paul’s letters. And it was not simple "works of obedience" that James concerned himself with when he said to Paul:
Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing,
So Paul would single out circumcision to such Jews and Gentiles in Rome to bring this out to them. Romans is filled with such examples and sets the context for it as is Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Joseph
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Honesty
Romans the 8th chapter caused me to go to Jesus in prayer.
I had DA'd about a month earlier partly because the cult told me it was idolatry to even think about talking with Jesus in prayer.
Romans chapter 8 is pretty specific.
If you do not have Christ living in you then you don't belong to Him.
That means He is going to turn His back on some folks one day and it will be for eternity.
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Vernon Williams
Romans 8, Galations 1, and the end of Math 12...last two verses, were all comforting to me post exit....
Keep studying...it will happen.....
Yours in this Journey,
V
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blueviceroy
The book of Thomas which was deleted from addition to the bible is very illuminating.Romans puts the lie to JWism claiming to be directed from the spirit.
We are all free to be children of god at anytime we agree to it.
We only need to be quiet and listen to the inner source that is without name or form.
The makers of "Watchtower Hypno Therapy" would appreciate it if you would refrain from studying this particular school of thought as it leads to empowerment and a heart full of LOVE rather than controllable fear
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dinah
Hey Honesty,
Feeling free to talk to Christ was a turning point for me. Good for you!!!
Reading the bible without the WT pubs gives you an entirely different message. John and Romans are my two favorite books to this day.
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uninformed
I highlighted a verse from Romans that I have always pointed to when I thought the WT was getting to big for its britches. Below the scripture is a quotation from the WT that shows they don't believe in the book of Romans.
(Romans 11:17-24) 17 However, if some of the branches were broken off but you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the olive’s root of fatness, 18 do not be exulting over the branches. If, though, you are exulting over them, it is not you that bear the root, but the root [bears] you. 19 You will say, then: "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 All right! For [their] lack of faith they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Quit having lofty ideas, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.22 See, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. Toward those who fell there is severity, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you also will be lopped off. 23 They also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much rather will these who are natural be grafted into their own olive tree!
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w978/1pp.10-11ServingLoyallyWithJehovah’sOrganization***8
Still, Jesus loyally supported the temple arrangement. From childhood, he attended the festivals at the temple and often taught there. He even paid the temple tax—although he was not really obligated to do so. (Matthew 17:24-27) Jesus commended the poor widow for putting "her whole living" into the temple treasury chest. Shortly thereafter, Jehovah permanently cast off that temple. But until then, Jesus was loyal to it. (Mark 12:41-44; Matthew 23:38) God’s earthly organization today is far superior to the Jewish system with its temple. Granted, it is not perfect; that is why adjustments are made at times. But neither is it riddled with corruption, nor is Jehovah God about to replace it. Never should we allow any imperfections we perceive within it to embitter us or move us to adopt a critical, negative spirit. Let us, rather, imitate the loyalty of Jesus Christ.—1 Peter 2:21.
Brant
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Doug Mason
The word “law” in the NT (nomos) encompasses a range of meanings, even within a single letter, as to the believers at Rome and also at Galatia.
When used with the definite article (“the”), the meaning of the word “law” includes at times the whole of the Hebrew Scriptures and other times it refers to the writings attributed to Moses (Pentateuch).
The surrogate “Moses” may at times be used to speak of “the law”, even though some of it predates Moses. Circumcision, the subject that immediately precedes the passage at Romans 4:13 is from “the law”, yet it predates Sanai. And faith preceded circumcision (Rom 4: 10).
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In the passage at Romans 4:13, the word “law” does not appear with the article. This is not an accident, since Paul is here contrasting those who thought God required obedience before a man would be accounted righteous, as against his own his position that a man is accounted righteous solely on the basis of his faith in Jesus Christ. No works (“law”), no obedience is required to be adjudged sinless in God’s sight.Obedience comes afterwards, as the result of knowing that God has provided the gift that cannot be earned. Obedience is the fruit of salvation, not its root (Gal 5:22).
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The subject of “nomos” is of more than mere academic interest to me. I struggled with the subject throughout my almost 20 year association with the SDA Church. It was important to me that the following passage is from a formal book produced under official auspices of that Church.“The Greeks looked at a noun from two points of view: (1) identity, (2) quality. The first they indicated by the article; the latter, by the absence of it. There seems to be no way of transferring the qualitative idea of the anarthrous noun into modern languages. At best the translator must decide whether "the" or "a" better conveys the meaning. Unfortunately the qualitative force of the anarthrous noun is untranslatable. …
“A striking illustration of the careful attention paid by Bible writers to the use of the article is found in Paul's discussion of law. As a typical example, the apostle uses the term "law" fifteen times in the discussion of Galatians, chapter 3. In the Greek it appears six times with the article and nine times without. In the English it appears fourteen times with the article and only once without.
“The question may fittingly be raised, ‘Was Paul indiscriminate in his use of the article?’ This can hardly be admitted. He was doubtless fully aware of the force of the use and the non-use of it.
“When he used the article he was pointing to a particular law and identifying it. When he omitted it he was looking at law from the standpoint of its function or quality. Some have naively contended that Paul used the article to refer to moral law, and omitted it when he referred to ceremonial law. Such a position is wholly untenable.
“However, even though the translator should scrupulously avoid inserting the article where it is absent in the Greek, he might even then not convey to the reader the force of its absence in the Greek.
“The careful distinction in shades of meaning are among the untranslatable riches of the Greek New Testament which cannot be transferred into a modern language. The translator does the best he can, choosing either the English definite or indefinite articles, the one that he thinks most nearly approaches what the original writer had in mind.” (“Problems in Bible Translation”, Review and Herald Publishing, pages 50, 51-52)
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An example in shades of meaning in “law” is provided at Romans 3:21:
“But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.”Paul immediately continues, showing how God freely provides justification apart from “law”:
“This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” (Romans 3: 22-24)
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In the lead up to Romans 4:13, Paul repeatedly says that Abraham was credited as righteous solely on the basis of his faith, not by any works of obedience. Thus in Romans 4:13, Paul can say that Abraham and his (circumcised and uncircumcised) offspring receive righteousness that comes through faith, not by “law”. The following quotations from the context immediately preceding Romans 4:13 show this:“If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abrahambelieved God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
“To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
“Abraham’sfaith was credited to him as righteousness.
“[Abraham] is the father of all who believe . …
“It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise … but through the righteousness that comes by faith.” (Romans 4: 2-3, 5, 9, 11, 13, NIV)
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Thank God we are not saved on the basis of our obedience (through “law”), but “through the righteousness that comes by faith”Doug
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JosephMalik
In the passage at Romans 4:13, the word "law" does not appear with the article. This is not an accident, since Paul is here contrasting those who thought God required obedience before a man would be accounted righteous, as against his own his position that a man is accounted righteous solely on the basis of his faith in Jesus Christ. No works ("law"), no obedience is required to be adjudged sinless in God’s sight.
Doug Mason,
I know this is your view but this is not what Paul is talking about. The use of the definite article is not proof as you keep insisting. It would be nice if it was present but even this would not settle the issue. Such use is not mandatory like the arguments on John 1:1. The word itself can be used in many other ways as you show and context determines what is meant not simply this definite article. Too much is made of it in such cases. What is Paul talking about here in Romans? And not just here but in all of Romans? Circumcision the tribes of Israel and the Law of Moses! And not just circumcision for Jewish believers mind you but circumcision for Gentile believers as well as a sign that they also obey this law. There was a separation between them and Paul was attempting to heal it. Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. This is not about obedience for such Jewish believers but about lineage in one of their tribes and a slap in their face for rejecting such Gentiles who could not transgress as they could. Then there is the grafting covered by another poster to show what the overall purpose of this discussion was all about. Yes, Paul talks about Abraham and faith and how all this developed because it was all part of the story found in Moses of how this faith came into existence. He summed up such writings of Moses and applied them. Why? To show something was more important than this Law this lineage they cherished. And yes obedience is required to be adjudged sinless in God’s sight but the Law no longer served this purpose and these Jews these Christians in Rome were still keeping it. That is what this letter tried to correct. Like the trip to Jerusalem which failed to correct this and many other attempts like this in other letters, it would finally take something as powerful as Hebrews and the conversion of James to finally settle the matter as he steadfastly kept this law in force not only for such Jews but for some of the apostles like Peter and John as well.
Joseph