Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

by drew sagan 66 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  jwfacts

  What happened that changed Christians from people who fled and hid from their persecutors to the point where they felt they needed to kill their enemies?

  They went from a minority to a majority.

  This is exactly the point being made, as soon as a group is in the majority they are forced to establish a means of defence. Where it goes wrong is that once the means of defence is available, people in power find ways to justify why they should become aggressors.

  The Old Testament is a classic example. The Israelites grew strong enough to form an army and then what happened - they brutalised the nations around them.
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  proplog2

  jwfacts:
  
  
  Some old business before I get to your "new" business.
  
  
  You said:
  
  
  

  "JWs can leech off the services of armies. However, it would be a very different story if JWs were the majority, you would very quickly see a change in stance on war.

  
  
  

  Pacifism is untenable as it lets the worlds tyrants dominate. There will always be the Hitlers, Pol Pots etc, so if the majority of people were Pacifists they would have free reign to dominate the world to the detriment of everyone."

  
  
  Are you sure you want to say that JW's "leech" off the services of armies? You make it seem as if there are no consequences for their actions. They are willing to die rather than take up arms. Now I could see your point if JW's were trying to avoid death and were cowards. But, just like the early Christians they accept death and imprisonment at the hand of the government. So who is a Christian's real enemy?
  
  
  Pacisfism has worked when it has been tried.
  
  
  I don't expect everyone to read the lengthy quotes I posted on the Early Church leaders attitude toward warfare. However, I at least hope that those who would want to carry on a dialog would do the courtesy of reading them.
  
  
  In answer to my question "What happened that Christians went from victim to persecutors after the 3rd Century".
  
  
  Your answer was:
  
  
  "They went from a minority to a majority."
  
  
  But you are skipping the most important part. What did they do to become a majority? The teachings of Jesus were extremely unpopular. What did they do to increase their appeal to the masses?
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  proplog2

  So far several people on this thread have stated that the explanation for Christians engaging in warfare is that they became the majority in various lands.
  
  That may be an "explanation" but it doesn't serve as "justification" for abandoning Christian neutrality.
  
  Most of the religions of Christendom are guilty of engaging in Warfare. There is no plea that can absolve them of their guilt.
  
  Drew's statement that the Watchtower's argument is "bogus" cannot be supported by the facts.
  
  I am confident that newbies and lurkers that are viewing this discussion (and who have read ALL of it) will see through this attack on JW beliefs. JW's would fit in quite well with the 1st Century followers of Christ. As stated before although opposing this worlds wars is not a SUFFICIENT CONDITION for declaring a religion "Christian" it IS!!!! a NECESSARY condition.
  
  It is appropriate to compare JW's with all the other Christian religions on this issue. You may still want to say that JW's don't meet some OTHER "necessary" condition but they DO meet this extremely important condition and 95% of the other claimants DON'T. And because this is such an important issue of Christ's teachings the field of selection for "true" Christians is greatly reduced.
  
  With this I EXIT this particular thread.
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  drew sagan

  With this I EXIT this particular thread.

  proplog2, your "exit" from this thread is nothing more than a desire to claim victory while thinking that nodoby is watching.
  
  Just about everybody who has read this thread can see that you are confused and continue to argue about things I never discussed.
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  Vinny

  Don't have time to read all of this. But since the thread is still kicking I will add my two cents, which I have used to debate with JW's regarding military service.
  
  
  Proplog2 thinks that a true christian cannot serve God while at the same time serve in the military today.
  
  
  But he is making a statement that CONTRADICTS what the bible actually says.
  
  
  We will get to that in a moment...
  
  
  So tell us Proplog2, I bet you are happy that SOMEBODY IS FIGHTING TERRORISTS TODAY? What you say to that?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering." Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him." The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, (((((WITH SOLDIERS UNDER ME))))). I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one ,'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was (((((healed at that very hour))))).
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Didn't God speak to "soldiers", even directing their battles, in Old Testament times?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Lets read Luke 2:12-14:
  
  
  12 But even tax collectors came to be baptized, and they said to him: “Teacher, what shall we do?” 13 He said to them: “Do not demand anything more than the tax rate.” 14 Also, those in ((((military service))) would ask him: “What shall we also do?” And he said to them: “Do not harass anybody or accuse anybody falsely, but be satisfied with YOUR provisions.”
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  But the JW's want to instead say how great a world with only JW's in it would be.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Vinny
• 

  proplog2

  I said I was done with this thread.
  
  I'm not claiming "victory" only satisfaction.
  
  I am satisfied that I have stated my case.
  
  It seems the really BIG JWD intellectuals have avoided this thread for some reason.
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  proplog2

  Vinny:
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  While you are waiting please read the whole thread.
  
  
  Thanks