My First Witness to a Witness (page 2)

nomoreguilt

Excellant CCS....The lord loves an apostate.

Thanks all for the kind responses. The book they quote from is "Babylon and Assyrian Chronology" by A.K. Grayson. The quote is made on pg 480 of the Insight book, volume 2, under Nebuchadnezzar. (Thanks Lady Liberty for that info.) Anyway, most dubs won't even bother to look that info up as it involves too much thinking. And we all know that too much thinking is a bad thing.

I spoke at length with Confession today about this topic. He helped me to see that for the most part, sincere dubs will always be just that. You cannot force someone to examine their faith if it is working for them Why fix it if it's not broken? That, unfortunately, is the attitude that many dubs take to avoid the bigger of losing their complete social structure. Because that's what being a dub is really all about isn't it? Their whole life and circle of close friends are dubs. To disagree is to lose all that appears to be most important. I am not an apologist, but I think that in all fairness we can all sympathize with those that can't and won't risk losing family and friends. I also think that it is unfair to paint all dubs with the tag of being vicious and cruel. This is another popint that I spoke to Confession about. It is sad to think that we all know people that are very sincere and good, intelligent people but will never give up on the farce that is their life. This, I think is where much of the frustration and anger comes from for those of us who get it. We can't understand how they can't see it when it is as plain as the nose on your face.

I am done postulating now. Fatigue seems to be making me want to spew forth my insignificant thoughts. I apologize for taking so long to respond to the many comments on this topic. I have had a very long day and am now 1 1/2 hrs into a 20 hour drive to get home from Phoenix. Good night.

CCS

jwfacts

CCS your reasoning with them was spot on.

Don't think that it won't have an affect. JWs have the highest turnover of any religion. Between 1996 and 2006 there were 2,968,732 baptisms but an increase of only 1.529,060 publishers. That is in part because of questions like you have raised. If there was not such high amount leaving, the total number of JWs would be significantly more than there are now.

"The shift is greatest among mainliners, smaller faiths and sects. Jehovah's Witnesses are most "mobile." Accounting for less than 1 percent of American adults, one-third of their members leave the group, and two-fifths join from another religion." "Coming out of the Cults" Psychology Today January 1979

R.Crusoe

Journey on you are so right about that 'hard heart' idea. Soon as you are in their front door they go on about Esau and how anyone turning to challenge is that sort.

Just shows how they are wrapping you up in a webb of your own thinking!

And isn't it cunning how they keep check on all faders and apostates as DNC so that freshmans don't get to hear the counterarguments?

Yeah they really do a number on newbies!

And by the time you realise you'vr been baptised with tar already so that on your way out they can roll you around in feathers!

Don't remind me!!

Cold Creek Swimmer

Jwfacts,

You are right. Sometimes all it takes is one idea that an individual can't stop thinking about. Maybe the idea I left him about the tower misquoting A.K. Grayson will be enough make him research and see for himself the purposeful misquotation in the Insight book. I did realize though that I quite enjoyed trying to bring them around to real truth. Makes me want to now take every opportunity to drop a bomb on anyone I find so that they will maybe think on their own.

CCS

Chalam

Hi CCS,
"I did however still make the point that the basic bible truth hasn't changed in 2500 years, but the religion they are part of has completely changed in 150 years. I told them that today if I were a witness and believed as witnesses did in 1918, I would be disfellowshipped for apostasy."

Excellent!

Happy witnessing :)

All the best,
Stephen

sitcomkid

Congratulations - -what you’re doing takes a lot of courage. It’s not easy face up to people. Your perspective is interesting, the idea about Jesus glomming onto such Pagan ways, if Paganism is to be avoided. But this is what history is all about - - human nature taking place over time. We all incorporate the past into our present tense. Nobody says it quite like Julian Jaynes: History does not move by leaps into unrelated novelty, but rather by the selective emphasis of aspects of its own immediate past. If they answered the question honestly, they’d have to admit that their religion was based on the cultural and historical needs of the times and places in which the many parts of the bible were written. This is why early Jews did ritual sacrifice - -at that point, they were still latter-day Pagans. The cultural shift was gradual, as such changes usually are. The one thing I notice about human nature is that it prefers what is familiar. This goes for individuals as well as groups. I am not criticizing this. I am just saying that people have to accept that it applies to religion and spirituality as well as everything else. So Jesus did the same thing. A little familiarity with some new stuff mixed in. You make a good point. You bring up another interesting point about them having to think for themselves. They don’t like that. Too much of what they call “higher reasoning” will distract from Jehovah. (as if there are could be a creator who gave us such an intricate and wonderful brain but prefers that we never use it) I have a friend who ended up going super-inactive (he wants to semi-leave but to retain his friends from within, so he moved 4 hours away to avoid the issue of actually leaving) and he told me that a friend of his, an elder, said that he actually prefers having his thinking handed to him on a platter by the Society. My friend told me the elder explained that, with all the complexities in the world, isn’t it nice not to have to worry about what our opinions or reactions should be? Then he supposedly went on to say something about how worldly people are so burdened, having to worry about these things, and he is thankful that he is not. I am getting all of this second hand, but it sounds like something somebody could say. I told my friend that I felt sorry for this elder he knows. Thinking our way through complex tasks is a gift, not a burden or a curse (or a path to Satan) and anybody who does not have some kind of mental disability should take great joy in living out their “humanness.” You may never find an answer to all your questions, but sometimes the point is in the journey. I think the most cruel thing the religion does is attempt to take away our ability to think for ourselves and tell us that availing ourselves of critical thinking is a sin, that celebrating our connection to previous cultures and belief systems is a sin, that anything human or natural is wrong. I have no idea why they think Jehovah created us if we are so wrong. There’s a question I’d like to ask somebody! Of course, that is too deep. If I really get in the mood to make one of them try and think, I use baby steps: They think that “luck” is pagan and “fortune” is innocent? Have you ever heard of a luck teller? Neither have I. Just a fun example from the "think for yourself" files. Sorry this post is so long. It’s my first time doing this, but I guess this post just hit a nerve with me.

oldflame

CCS,

Hey that was some fine work, I'll bet the two of them had some discussions between the two of them afterwards, now we will jsut hope the digest it and work with it to research the real truth.

Cold Creek Swimmer

Welcome to the board, Sitcomkid. For a 1st post that was quite well done. You bring up some good points that have always bothered me.

a friend of his, an elder, said that he actually prefers having his thinking handed to him on a platter by the Society. My friend told me the elder explained that, with all the complexities in the world, isn’t it nice not to have to worry about what our opinions or reactions should be? Then he supposedly went on to say something about how worldly people are so burdened, having to worry about these things, and he is thankful that he is not.

That is the kind of thinking that just kills me. It makes it so easy for those types of people to be controlled. Isn't that the ultimate goal? Control? Again my frustration breaks forth and screams "Why can't they see this?"

CCS

sitcomkid

CCS- - Yes, it is about social control. The problem is that ancient social control applies best to very old societies. Sure, some of it is applicable today, but other portions of it lie too far outside our experience to be of any use. And no, they don’t see it. If you study the historical development of any of the world’s major religions, you will see that whatever was going on was in response to the social climate of the time and place and made sense within that context. Nowadays, people grasp for meaning in their lives, but also structure, guidance, purpose and comfort. Religion feeds us all of these, or it can. Because of this potential, many people latch onto the religious beliefs they were raised with, or, if there was a problem or disagreement there (or if they were raised with no religion in particular) they might listen to a preacher from another religion. Believing in a religion is not always bad- - it depends on how the person uses the information. As an excuse to be loving and charitable and humble, or as an excuse to be haughty and critical and boast that one’s own religion is the best? With the Jehovah’s Witnesses, I believe that the religion pushes them to be the latter type of person. People are out there looking for religion, and I feel that taking away their ability to think for themselves or telling them they are wrong if they do so does not only enforce outdated social roles on a modern society - - it robs them of their ability or willingness to think for themselves, and thus their very humanity.

My First Witness to a Witness

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