I am in the midst of reading Jehovah Unmasked and have come to a very interesting point. Nathaniel J. Merritt says that a close reading of Genesis 3:22-24 shows that Adam and Eve were already dying. I found this to be a very interesting idea, in addition to the very plain and simple use of words in that passage that clearly states indeed the Serpent's promise to Eve was correct.
New International Version - Genesis 3:22-24:
22 "And the LORD God said, `The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.' 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [a] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."
a. Genesis 3:24 or "placed in front."
I've been reading and doing research on the Gnostic gospels and writings, so I've already come across many writings about Jehovah simply being the creator of Earth and nothing more, and that in fact there are other god's on his same level, which is essentially middle management. However, this is the one the first very clear cut instances I've read in the traditional canon that eludes to this, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
In this part of the book Merritt also goes on to say that in fact YHWH was the first to lie as his threat to Adam and Eve was that they would die.
New International Version - Genesis 2:17
"17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
And according to Merritt, the Youngs Literal Translation of the original Hebrew passage at Genesis 2:17 is "in the day of thy eating of it, dying thou dost die." Which would imply first that they were already dying and secondly that that very day death would come.
Obviously very different teachings than we had as JW's. Thoughts?
Adam and Eve - already dying BEFORE eating from tree?
by feenx 8 Replies latest jw friends
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feenx
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Narkissos
Keep in mind that the Gnostic writings, just like others (later Jewish, NT, mainstream Christian, as well as modern sectarian doctrines like the WT's) offer mere reinterpretations of Genesis 2--3 according to ideologies which do not necessarily correspond to the perspective of the original text.
In context, the wording of 2:17, mot tamut (you shall die), corresponds to the typical Hebrew expression of death penalty as found in many other places. The opposite of this is not "everlasting life" -- nobody would think that someone who "gets away" with a capital offence will ipso facto never die.
In the end of chapter 3, "eternal life" clearly appears as a new opportunity which man might "steal" from the gods just as he has stolen "knowledge". This is something entirely different.
So if you look back, it seems that the serpent was right on two points: they did obtain divine knowledge (albeit of an ambiguous and embarrassing kind) and they did not suffer immediate capital punishment. And at least those "Gnostics" who did see in the serpent the revealer of knowledge to man through the woman (which was not necessarily the case of all "Gnostics," btw) had that right, even though that doesn't make their entire system "scriptural" (they wouldn't have liked that) or "correct".
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feenx
Thank you for the input :)
I am not saying I am by any means entrenched in the gnostic camp. I referenced it simply because gnostics refer to YHWH as A god, not THE god, unlike JW's. I find it interesting that ancient texts have different explanations for things based on the traditional canon. And I also think it's interesting that people are very quick to accept these texts automatically as complete truth or complete fiction.
Some seem to feel they must be right if they were hidden and never spoken of, others feel that the people who labeled them as heresy or untruth must be right, otherwise they wouldn't have done so.
To me both seem to be extreme ends of the spectrum, and easy ways to accept or dismiss what is said, rather than finding for themselves what they feel is right.
In any event, I very much like the idea that YHWH is not supreme, as based on my experiences growing up, what I was taught, and what I've experienced in life this hypothesis seems to feel right. -
Narkissos
I tried to edit my post but apparently it was too late (error message).
Other examples of uses of mot tamut / yamut (you / he shall die) are Genesis 20:7; 1 Samuel 14:39,44; 22:16; 2 Samuel 12:14; 1 Kings 2:37,42; 2 Kings 1:4,6,16; 8:10; Jeremiah 26:8, Ezekiel 3:18; 33:8,14. There are a number of different contexts implying death by divine, kingly or popular decision, fatal outcome of illness, but simply dying of old age (let alone several hundred years later, in the case of "Adam") is definitely out of the scope of this expression.
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Chalam
Hi,
This is an interesting point and one I have thought about before.
My belief is that neither Adam or Eve we dying physically. However, this was true.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.
No, they did not die physically but spiritually. However, physical death was promised here
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
This verse is interesting
Gen 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he is mortal [b] ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
My guess is mortality came in with the curse and even after that, God prolonged men's lives by seven or eight times up until this point.
So, considering that God sustains all things in the universe then most likely He was going to sustain the lives of Adam and Eve indefinitely until they sinned?
After all Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So we are left with the question of what the Tree Of Life could do for on on eating its fruit?
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever
To understand this you need to read the end of the bible.
Revelation 22 (New International Version)
The River of Life
1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."
All the best,
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Tara
I loved that book! It helped me to reconcile that the loving Father Jesus spoke of in the New Testament was not the same god of the Old Testament. I cannot worship Jehovah as he is utterly undeserving.
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5go
Yeah I stumbled on a site that had a gnostic theory that God was the bad guy and snake was the good guy and being used by the real god. I
It stated the YHWH was trying to keep Adam, Eve, and mankind for himself and the real god sent the snake to open Eves eyes to YHWH's doings. When this worked YHWH caused Adam and Eve to age and die in order to keep mankind from knowing the truth at least for long. Anyone that finds the truth is a target of YHWH's agents in order to keep the truth hidden and keep mankind enslaved to YHWH.
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5go
BTW the site stated and I also believe if their is a original creator God, it is a Goddess. I think they said it's name was Sophia.
I don't really know if the Mother Goddess has ever had a name human have known. In fact I am really still an atheist.
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Robert222
Since the fog has been lifted since I no longer attend the cult mtgs, it seems Jehovah and powerful angels (or gods) are more on an equal level. That's why Satan could LEGALLY challenge Jehovah's right to rule mankind, and the lengthy legal means Jehovah used (by way of his "son" Jesus) to claim back the earth as his own.
Otherwise, if Jehovah truly were the highest being, why not just simply lay down your rules and that's that. Why all this human suffering, dying, sickness, if Jehovah didn't have to prove a point or compete for domination of the heavens and earth. Seems Satan is exposing that in the Bible when he tests Job, and later tests Jesus.
Not one JW can explain why Jah allowed Job to be persecuted, remember Job knew nothing of Satan, he thought Jah was testing him - and he was right! Jah even allowed Satan to murder Job's children - no JW can explain that in the Bible.
ALSO I thought the earth was created through JESUS - another powerful god?? Or a god just below the rank of Jehovah??
This is a much more interesting topic than the WA sales mtgs each Sunday where all they talk about is recruitment.