I am so grateful to find this site. I can not thank all of you enough for taking the time and interest in my story. Thank you for welcoming me here, and sharing your thoughts.
can any one help
by ladylove 18 Replies latest jw friends
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worldtraveller
Rim is right about zero tolerance for abuse, but I saw nothing in your parents letter except remourse. Are we all so jaded that absolutely no one ever gets a second chance? If he was such a dick, would he have even bothered to respond?
Doesn't the bible state something about turning the other cheek? I just say this because I never gave my parents another chance and now that they are all long gone, I wish I did. If it ends up a waste of time, then your conscience is now clear and you move on.
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rimfiredancing
Actually, I don't see remorse, I see emotional manipulation. I have spent a lot of years getting to the core of emotional and psychological abuse, primarily because I had to detox from first my mother's way of being and then the b0rg, so I have a very clear personal understanding of what is actually abusive and manipulative. Whilst not wishing in any way to seem detractive, I'd like to clarify my position and reasoning for my original reply. I believe it's *vitally* important for ex-cult members to be really clear when someone is sliding subtle emotional manipulation past them- that's how we ended up in the b0rg in the first place: if you had been in your right mind, would you have allowed the complete annhilation of your personality and ability to think critically? Neither would I.
the poster's original letter to her father raised some very specific issues and points, with some very clear questions that asked for answers. She mentions specific hypocrisies, particularly around her grandfather and uwed relatives and asks very specific questions as to the judgements that are being applied. This is very pertinent to the situation with her sister, as once again arbitrary decisions that have deep impact on the family and her ability to connect with her father are being made, as evidenced by her offer to be the one who is rejected 'because she is used to it'. She makes it clear that these are issues that are asking for answers.
In his reply, he does nothing but make empty apologies that offer no answers to the fundamental issues at all. He offers a weak 'I'm sorry I didn't protect you from grandpa' whilst totally failing to answer her original issue, which was about the continued contact *after* the molestation. There is no offer of explanation as to why this contact with a known molester was ok. In reality, this is continual abuse on the her part: not only did she have to live with what had happened to her, she also had to conform to her father's expectation that she continue to be around this abuser. This suggests that there was already a dynamic between father and son in which abuse was tolerated. Dad couldn't even step away from that pattern to uphold his daughter's integrity and dignity. Is this how we as parents choose to behave? Do we insist that our children are force fed some bizarre form of cultural 'understanding' in order to be emotionally violated again? As a child, we have no choice but to suppress our reactions to the people that originally hurt us, because the people that we thought would protect us are telling us by their actions and expectations that what happened to us wasn't really *that* bad and that there's something wrong with *us* for continuing to have a problem. 'Forgive and forget' is one of the most poisonous and powerful tools for manipulation that there is: the Native Americans are exhorted to 'forgive and forget', the descendants of slaves are exhorted to 'forgive and forget', the victims of rape, crime, abuse, violation and all number of things are exhorted to 'forgive and forget', whilst the studies indicate that the perpetrators think that there was never anything wrong with what they did in the first place.
This means that the philosophy is a perfect tool for abusers of any kind: if we fail to 'forgive and forget', the problem is with US and not the perpetrator. WE are supposed to show 'mercy' to those that, given the chance, show absolutely no mercy at all, and definately no remorse, although they're excellent at faking it. For me, this is an unacceptable equation and I no longer advocate any form of 'forgetting', whilst I advocate that primarily the forgiveness needs to be directed towards oneself.
The father brushes off the issue of hypocrisy by pointing out that there are *other* family members that aren't invited, and talks about 'closeness'. How does one become close to an emotionally abusive/manipulative person? By either not experiencing first hand their tactics, or by being damaged and accepting the continued abuse as normal. Either way, its toxic. The rest of the letter is meaningless blither designed to deflect the main issues raised by the writer, and then dismisses the entire issue by saying that 'Kate wouldn't come anyway and please let's not discuss this further': in other words, he's not interested in what is actually deeply bothering her, he just wants his own way and wants her to shut up, just like he did with grandpa.
So, where exactly is the remorse? Where is the sincere concern for her wellbeing, her emotional turmoil and pain, her issues with old, unresolved situations that are obviously deeply troubling, her raising of the situation that is endemic in the entire family. No, he's not interested in these things, he's interested in getting her to shut up and go along with things so that *he* can get what he wants, make things look good and pretend- just like with grandpa and the unwed relatives- that everything is actually ok and all swept under the rug.
Nope. Doesn't work for me. I endured the emotional manipulations of a *real* pro for 14 years, during which time she would collapse into apparent heartfelt remorse and self loathing after every bashing, telling me that she totally understood if I couldn't forgive her, indulging in a self hate session that generally ended with her screaming and wailing at 'god' for 'making her so flawed' or some such other self indulgent rubbish. It was precise and impressive manipulation, because what child *doesn't* want their parent to feel better, even at their own expense? And here is the equation again: he wants her to ignore her feelings, ignore his behaviour towards her siblings, stop even mentioning the hypocrisy and skeletons dangling in full view, shut up and just do what he wants so he can pretend the people he's invited are close to him.
Yuck. Blech. Blurk. This is not real, respectful, loving, genuine relationship- and why bother with anything less? I can fully empathise with your unresolved stuff with your parents: I did spend time with my mother before she died of cancer last year, but that was because I had gotten really, really clear on my ability to walk away if she tried any abusive stuff on me at all. She tried, saw the expression on my face and backed right off, because she knew she was dying and was afraid of what may come in her idea of the afterlife. I spent time with her in order to finish some of my own healing: had I not decided that it was the right thing for me to do, I would not have done it and would have been quite peaceful with her dying without any contact from me. Just because someone contributed genetic material to our physical body doesn't mean they're a great, good or even supportive person for us to be around. I personally deeply believe that its truly time for adults to stop making children take responsibility for the mess the adults are in and have made, emotionally or on any other level. This refusal to deeply embody this way of embracing adult personal responsibility is precisely why a million children a year, from the age of two to 12, are sold into prostitution. This will stop when we really get its not ok to ask our children to prostitute their essence, their true selves, their integrity and their emotional and physical wellbeing so that the adults around them can run their crap, on any level.
So no, I don't advocate 'forgive and forget' as a blanket philosophy. -
flipper
LADYLOVE- Welcome to the board friend . You have a tough decision here. You certainly have the freedom to make whatever choice you wish in seeing your dad or not . It's a problematic one because he is trying to be manipulative and controlling ( as most Jehovah's Witnesses are) in who you can bring to the gathering . And it seems to me there is a lot of pain and anger, and hurt ( rightly so ) that you have over the grandfather molesting you. You have a right to be angry- and you have a right to have an explanation from your father as to why he was a coward and did not protect you from your grandfather. He seems to be avoiding it by saying to drop the issue. Thus minimizing your hurt and pain. It is an evasive tactic that many JW's use.
I would advise you to get professional counseling if you haven't for the child abuse you suffered so as to heal from the hurt and pain. A psychotherapist or counselor can help you work through it. But I would accept no excuses from the father either. He needs to see that what happened was wrong and admit it. If he doesn't admit it, or be honest about why it was allowed - you probably don't have a good basis for a close relationship. Everyone has to be honest. And if Grandpa's still alive - report his butt to the authorities , child abuse should NEVER be tolerated. Good luck friend, Peace out, Mr. Flipper -
sass_my_frass
Yikes, tricky one. You know him and your own tolerance levels best. I personally don't tolerate anything that I consider manipulative or unkind in my own family anymore; I don't care what their reasons are.
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ladylove
I really enjoyed reading all of your responces to my quest of understanding.
Rimfiredancing is spot on with the empty apologies and Manipulations.
I had tried once to get all my brothers and sister together, but my youngest brother still lives at home, with his wife. He still follows JWs around like a lost puppy. shortly before he got married he planned on moving out, This was put on halt when his mother (my stepmom) tried commiting suicide. So he lives at home, with his wife and is not allowed to assiociate without permission from our father.
leaving me with never having all my brothers, their children, or my sister together in the same place.
Thank you all for your time and unconditonal acceptance of me here!!
with love
Ladylove
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worldtraveller
I only know one witness and from what I know of him, I no longer want to know him at all. He is a business associate and he calls me when there is a job to do.
From what I see here I can only say in my conclusion of this thread is that those who were once Witnesses themselves must have at one time had such a low self esteem during that phase of your life. Now you resent it, and you see in others this negative behaviour. Can one be taught to be this awful? I suspect deep down that you were somewhere in a stage of life that you could accept what they had to offer. Now you have learned that this behaviour is destructive-both for the people you know, and to yourself.
I have rethought my position on this thread and I believe my position was based on my life here with my own family. I still believe that family does count, but my family offers love unconditional. Perhaps there is more here that I cannot and do not wish to understand. Perhaps the people involved in the Watchtower are truly more evil that I originally understood. I thought at first they were simply misdirected, but I believe now I was wrong.
I am not at all happy to change my decision, because I will always believe in family first, but if it is truly as abusive as it seems (for all here), then I now believe you should discontinue your relationship.
I have one question to all here. At one point if anyone here(in the society) becomes truly remourseful, and you yourselves have shunned the offenders, how will you ever know it's time to make peace with that member of your family?
No one outside of the cult can argue that the society is truly evil. But I have talked to many here that have left or are slowly on their way out.
I am happy to see that the folks I have talked to here have seen their "new light". You know who you are!!! Thanks all.
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rimfiredancing
Abusive, manipulative and toxic behaviour is not just the domain of JWs- it's in every aspect of society, it's just that as children we're trained to accept it for a wide variety of reasons. A nurturing, loving family is a wonderful gift in life (my partner and soon-to-be-husband is the most loving and awesome man I have ever known) and at the same time, blood is not thicker than water: if your family of origin is toxic or manipulative, there is no reason to tolerate this just because 'they're my parents'.
I have the healthiest and happiest relationship I have ever had in my life because I learned not to tolerate emotional or any other kind of abuse. There are many different possibilities for 'family', very few of which have anything to do with blood ties. We can choose what framework we live within- society itself is toxic and dysfunctional and I got a lot happier in my life when I realised that listening to anything it said was asking for the same miserable outcome it is heading towards. Now I decide for myself what is healthy and good for me and my kids, and things are turning out so much better than I had ever been able to imagine.
At what point forgiveness? When *REAL* remorse is shown, not just trumped up manipulation covered over with a slimy, insincere 'Oh, sorry'. In my reply regarding the letter I detail why the apology is nothing more than an effort to continue the manipulation- those who truly understand and grasp the scope of their previous behaviours *and who want something NOT toxic* take specific actions that have healing and true connection as their motivation. Most abusive/toxic people never get to that point though, because they have a rationalisation mechanism that puts them at the centre of the world and everyone else is unimportant; they truly are self absorbed, have an inability to see things from anyone else's point of view, consider themselves victims, misunderstood or hard done by the world and have justification for their rotten behaviour as a fixed way of being.
It takes a lot of self examination, honesty, humility and willingness to change that pattern. For me, if someone is striving to truly deal with their patterns, then I'll give them space in my life. Otherwise, why bother? I'm simply asking for pain and I got over THAT habit a long time ago. :) -
Mum
What a sad story.
I agree that your "father" is an emotional manipulator. You must weigh your options and assess your feelings and then do what is in your own best interests. It makes me so angry to see families ruined by this cult!
BTW, the scriptures cited about shunning are used by JW's and other high control groups. Personally, I believe they were written to warn us to protect ourselves and our loved ones, not to cause divisions in families and foment hatred. They are warnings about behavior, not beliefs.
Best wishes with healing,
SandraC