real one --- please provide proof here (page 19)

Caedes

Real one,

I will read them when I get home and let you know what I think, although words in an old book of dubious authenticity are not considered proof where I come from.

jgnat

I'll take a stab at real one's challenge.

For reference, here are the three scriptures in question:

Psa 22:16-18 KJV For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Zec 12:10 KJV ¶ And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Isa 53:3-8 KJV He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Now to take the "devil's advocate" position, can we say for certainty that all scriptures to do with piercing or shredding or wounding refer to Jesus on the cross? Many other people and martyrs died that way. Since not all martyrs who died by piercing can claim to be the Messiah, this alone cannot be taken as proof. How about his meek demeanor and his great suffering? Again, Jesus was not the only meek person who died a martyr's death.

Can we take it as progressive revelation that in the Psalms, then in Isaiah, in Zechariah, and finally at the cross, they speak of peircing? Not necessarily. All three scriptures use a different hebrew word. These words appear many more times in the bible, and not all are related to a prophecy regarding a martyr's death. Also, some scholars insist that Psalm 22 mistranslated the Hebrew word, "Kaari" as "pierced" when it more properly should be translated "like a lion".

Psalm 22:16 karah [Strong's H3738] is also found at Gen 26:25 Gen 50:5 Exd 21:33 Num 21:18 2Ch 16:14 Job 6:27 Psa 40:6 Psa 57:6 Psa 94:13 Psa 119:85 Pro 16:27 Pro 26:27 Jer 18:20 Jer 18:22
Isaiah 53:5 daka' [Strong's H1792] is also found at Zechariah 12:10 daqar [Strong;s H1856] is also found at Num 25:8, Jdg 9:54, 1Sa 31:4, 1Ch 10:4, Isa 13:15, Jer 37:10, Jer 51:4, Lam 4:9, Zec 12:10, Zec 13:3
Job 4:19 Job 5:4 Job 6:9 Job 19:2 Job 22:9 Job 34:25 Psa 72:4 Psa 89:10 Psa 94:5 Psa 143:3 Pro 22:22 Isa 3:15 Isa 19:10 Isa 53:5 Isa 53:10 Isa 57:15 Jer 44:10 Lam 3:34

Now, as for other similarities, Jesus crying out the very words in Psalm 22, this is not surprising. He was well versed in the scriptures. He may very well have understood the implications. As would the authors of the gospels. In order to make their case to their Hebrew audience, would not they have recorded the similarities?

Here are some other views on the use of these scriptures.

Pascal's Wager on Psalm 22:16, a commentary that well argues that the word pierced is properly translated "like a lion" http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/pierce.html

The Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53. They believe this prophecy pertains to their own nation, not a future messiah. http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53b.html

The Jewish interpretation of Zechariah 12:10. They were expecting their hero to die in battle (pierced) http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/m.sion/ze12jmi.htm

Authors and Timelines:

Psalm 22:16,18 several different authors, mostly David - 1000 - 400 B.C. http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-authors.html

Isaiah 52, and 53 Isaiah = Isaiah - 700 B.C. http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-authors.html

Zechariah 12:10 Zechariah = Zechariah - 500 B.C. http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-authors.html

Barbie Doll

i did not say it was wrong to be an athiest

This is what you did say. Swine, Pig, Fool, Worthless, Crazy, Heartless, Cruel, Never do Right.

Nomorequilt-----Yes he is still at it.

Ex-nj-jw-----He has not answer the questions yet. Because he can't.

jgnat-----I get your drift. A man to diet Pepsi, Yes it is bad for you, and smoking is bad for you too.

But I am not going to push it down your throat.lol lol

real one

over 500 people saw Jesus after His death

real one

bd dont twist my words..you mixed what i said with a scriptue i quoted...so deceiving

inkling

over 500 people saw Jesus after His death

says who? were YOU one of those 500? what makes this story true? [ink]

real one

inkling if this story was not true dont you think after all these years those people would have said they did not see Jesus? come on over 500 sightings and then look how quick the church grew around that time over 3000 people became christians after hearing about this. those people gave testamonies..you have to believe history...no historian in his right mind today denies that Jesus existed its too much evidence. you guys wanted me to find proof so now you got me started! i got a whole lot more to say

Caedes where are you, you opened up this can too...come on kwin where you at

real one

Shakespeare believed in Jesus

White Dove

I don't believe in God, Heaven, Satan, or Hell as the Bible explains them. Satan is all the negative aspects inside all of us, and God is all of the positive aspects inside all of us. That is how I believe them to be as the only prayers that ever got answered were answered by the acts of people, not superhuman beings. I miss being able to blame the devil for my mistakes. Jesus? A great person like Ghandi and Buddha. Great guy!

real one --- please provide proof here

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