Make sure you tiptoe past Room # 1914
The JW's think they are the only ones up here.
My conversation with a Born Again.
by yourmomma 29 Replies latest jw friends
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jaguarbass
I spoke with a born again today. I am wondering if this person represents how they all think or just some. I'll assume just some. Anyway the conversation was fine, however then it hit a point when it dawned on me that they are similar to witnesses. He said that all of JW's are going to hell because they are not born again. So I said the following: "So let me get this straight, for example lets say there is an old widow who has been a witness all her life, and she believes with all her heart the JW docterine. So she truly feels that she is serving God. This woman because she has been deceived by men into believing the WTS docterine, is going to hell? An innocent, old, honest hearted woman who loves God and is dedicated in her own mind to him is going to hell, a place of eternal torment because wicked men took advantage of her and deceived her?"
His response was yes. So at that point I ended the conversation. I'll carry a conversation with anyone, but once I detect this kind of crap, im done. You know why? Because its no different than the witnesses, the only difference is that instead of Armageddon its hell. Hell and Armageddon, 2 things used by relgions to guilt and fear people into serving God. F that. Im thinking about coming up with a chart that lists the different religions, and then what kind of extreme punishment will befall a person who doesnt believe what they believe. I'll start with 2:
1. Jehovah's Witnesses-If you dont serve God the way we say, you die in Armageddon.
2. Born Again's-If you dont serve God the way we say, you spend eternity in hell.
This post is not meant to offend any Born Agains, if you believe this, more power to you, I dont buy it. So I guess I am going to hell. I wonder if the JW's will shun me when I am in hell. We'll look at each other and say "Dam, we were both wrong, wow, its like a sauna in here. Im assigned to the steel pole in the eye machine today, what about you? Oh, I had that yesterday, today I am assigned to the hot lava down the throat, while being disemboweled machine. Oh jeez, let me know how that goes. cant wait to swim in the lake of fire, that doesnt seem to be as bad. Hey, anyone see Satan? No, but I was in line behind Hitler at the steel pole machine. Is it me, or does it seem like we have been down here for an eterinity! LOL"!Hello Yourmama, the born agains I have encountere believe this way. When I left the tower in 83 I read my bible and fancied myself a born again for a time, I spent a lot of time with one from work.
They were very much like jws as you say. If you dont believe as they you are done.
I quit thinking of myself as a born again when it came down to my fahther was on his death be dying of cancer, And I said if you dont repent and accept Jesus as yor god you are going to hell.
He and my family let me know how terrible that sounded and how self righteous I sounded. After that I moved away from the born again way of thought and eventually from the bible and God.
With the born agains any realitive or person who is not born again is in hell.
With the witnesses any realitve or person who was not a witness is eternally dead.
Thats too heavy for me to buy into.
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OBVES
Be surprised ! Most people claiming to be Christians are trying to decimate the Bible by misinterpreting the Bible and the issue of being born again is an excellent example .
Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus who was a Jew . He was already a God's child as all Old Testament Israel was called the children of God .
People who are sinners are dead according to Christ ! Read the Bible well ! What happens when a person believes in Christ : he leaves the death and goes to life !
To be born again is to become a God's child again ! And only Jews - Israelites could become born again that is become a child of God again.This time it is in a spiritual sense !
It is ,then, if you talked to someone born again you most likely did not talk to the born-again believer ; in view of the fact that there is a very small number of Jews that are born again.
In the first place those born again are among those Jews who are a part of the class 140000 servants.
Christ - the first born and 144000 servants also the first born. And some of them can be born again if they were Jews before.
Can you imagine now most of those claiming to be born again were not born again at all and they most likely are in the religions that are contrary to the Bible !
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jambon1
I dof my cap to anyone who believes this stuff & still wants to worship 'it/him/her/god'. It's worth remembering that the OT AND the new testament are loaded with pronouncements against non-believers. Scary stuff if you don't remember that it is only milleniums old b/s written by people in caves.
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inkling
Hey, anyone see Satan? No, but I was in line behind Hitler at the steel pole machine. Is it me, or does it seem like we have been down here for an eterinity! LOL"!
Lol!
[ink]
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MMae
So -------
St. Peter was showing the lastest arrival all around heaven. Far off in the distance, there was a village with a very high wall. Songs of praise could be heard from behind the wall, "We thank you Lord, that you have brought us into your presence!"
"So what's over there, Pete?" the man asked.
"Shhhhh! Keep your voice down. Those are the (insert JWs/ LDS/ BA.) They think they are the only ones up here."
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lfcviking
That bit about Hell was well funny.
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Satanus
Lots of jws and born agains deny that they judge people like that. Instead, they say that their god, or jesus, or the person judges him/herself. It's basically the same thing, though. The belief is still there. It's just been shifted one step away from the believer. Like the murderer who doesn't want to get their hands dirty, she has someone else do the wet work.
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XJW4EVR
I read your post a few days ago, but decided not to post until I really thought about what you were saying. Here are my two cents.
In regards to the "innocent" old woman deceived by the WT$. The response is simple: Romans chapters 1, 2 & 3 say that no one will be able to excuse themselves before God. This includes everyone from the garden variety pagan all the way down to the most pious Jew. They all stand before God as sinners (there is no such thing as an innocent person to God), and as such are deserving of eternal separation from God. Yes, eternal separation from God, and not a burning hell.
I think your presuppositions are faulty because no where in Christianity are we taught that how we worship determines our eternal destiny. I realize that this may come as a shock to you, but it's true. Christianity is not about doing something for God, but rather what God has DONE for us. That is what Paul continues on with in 4 , 5 & 6 of Romans. That salvation comes not from works, but rather from the death and resurrection of Jesus.
I realize that this may be new to you, and to tell you the truth it may also be knew to that evanjelly-fish nimnue Christian you were speaking to, but this is what the NT teaches about sinners, hell and salvation.
By the way your post did not offend me, but what that evanjelly-fish told you did.
I hope this answers some of your questions. If you, or anyone else wishes to dialog further, I welcome the opportunity.
Fight on! -
hmike
I'll try to explain it as I see it...
There would have been many Jews in Paul's time who were zealous and God-fearing and who followed the Mosaic Law as well as was humanly possible because they had been told by the elders that this was the only way to please God, and those faithful Jews sincerely believed the elders spoke for God. Yet, Paul would have told them that righteousness does not come from observing the Law, but from placing faith in the resurrected Jesus as God's chosen Messiah. When teachers in the church began deviating from the apostolic message, they—as well as those who followed after them—were warned to stay true to the word they were given. The writers of the New Testament would not have made the effort or subjected themselves to hardships on behalf of what they taught if it was not important, and if it was not the only way. Obviously what Christians held to was important. On some issues, there was no latitude.
The central issue the orthodox church has always had with JW and most other groups rests on the person of Jesus Christ. The position derived from the canononical writings is that Christ has equal status with the Father. Jesus has sovereign power (Daniel 7:14), all authority (Dan. 7:14 and Matt. 28:18), will be judge of mankind, and is worthy of worship. The Father exalted him to his right hand as Lord over all, and all created things are being brought under his feet. Some scriptures make reference to Christ's inner being having shared the exalted status with the Father prior to his incarnation (John 1:1; Phil. 2:6). That the Father exalted the resurrected Jesus to this supreme position according to his will, and that man was to honor Jesus as he would honor the Father was a pivotal teaching. First, this was testified to by God himself, and if it came from God, it needed to be accepted. Second, it was the basis for accepting the teachings of Jesus—rather than keeping the Mosaic Law—as the will of God. This not only applied to Jews under the Law, but also Gentiles, who would not need to accept the Law as part of their inclusion into the church. Anyone who accords Jesus a lower status, whether it be as an incarnation of a created angel, a spirit brother of Lucifer, or simply a good, moral, miracle-working teacher, is at variance with the expressed will of the Father as given in the Biblical texts. For someone who may not understand about the status of Jesus, but still regards him as supreme living authority to be followed, that is a practical faith that, I would think, meets the requirements.
I wouldn't say what the fate of the woman is. All people in JW, LDS, or any number of other groups are not automatically excluded from Christ any more than all people belonging to orthodox churches are in Christ. This is a matter for the individual heart. Plus, many people who are in these groups are not aware of all the doctrines and their implications. What we can assume is that If this woman is totally committed to JW as the only true representative of God, then she is most likely committed to unconditionally accepting anything that has been laid down by the Governing Body—past, present, and future. Here it is a matter of taking personal responsibility for what we give credence to. We have to take responsibility for our own path. In the case of an organization or group which claims to adhere to the Bible as authoritative, we should examine the Scriptures for ourselves and compare them to claims that have been made. Particularly, in this time, in this culture, with Bibles so readily available and so many in possession of at least a basic education, there is no good excuse not make this comparison. Any group which claims to base its teaching on the Bible but discourages its people from reading it and interpreting it for themselves has to be suspect. These groups seem to consider people to be incompetent. So the mistake comes in blindly accepting someone else's explanation of the Scriptures. (If, upon examination and study, we come to the same conclusions as someone else, at least the position we take will be truly ours—we haven't abrogated this responsibility.) Leaders and teachers of the Word will be held accountable, but that does not relieve individuals of their own responsibility, especially under the circumstances most of us live in today. My personal opinion is that if this woman sincerely wants to do God's will and please God, he will present her with opportunities to see the errors of JW. But we would have to ask if there are other circumstances holding her in the organization. Is she actually held by the fear of the social consequences of questioning JW authority? Is she more afraid of the changes it would mean? What other factors may play into this?
I don't know what hell really is, or if there are different levels. I just know that the Scriptures tell us that what we accept about the person of Christ is not trivial and we are personally accountable for our choice. To say that we allowed someone else to mislead us doesn't appear to hold value. I don't know what kind of allowance God would make.
Because of the sin nature in all of us, we would all be headed for eternal separation from God—it is the default destination. God offers us an opportunity in Christ to escape that fate. The Lake of Fire was prepared for the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. So it's like a political or military alliance: we get whatever the side we line up with gets. If we ally ourselves with the winner, we share in the victory. If we ally ourselves with the loser, we share in the loss.
I think this would be the basis for what that person said about the woman.