by kevin221 22 Replies latest jw friends
Question to throw out to anyone who cares to answer.
What do JW's believe happens when they die. Jon always told me that when life was over, that was it, no heaven no hell just nothingness.
Is that what JW's really believe? He didn't like to talk about it with me because he thought it would upset me.
Thanks for any input,
Kevin
Hi Kevin,
It would be nice if we just passed over to another world but God designed us to die, just like the animals. We are physical and "dust we are and to dust we will become". I have some hope of future life, but I really doubt it will be realized.
Ken P.
G'day Kevin,
To keep Jehovah's Witnesses constantly on thier toes Jehovah promises that when they die he might commit thier names to memory. He also has a big book of life and if you're good he pencils you in to be resurected perfectly naked on a paradise earth. After a few hundred years you will get a chance to tell Satan where to stick his fruit and Jehiovah might then pen you into the book of life perminantly .. unless you get a big head like satan one day and that will mean instant death .. only jesus and the 144,000 gain incoruptabliility
curiously little mention is ever made of the asignment of the 144,000 after thier job is complete 1,000 years after armagedon and all jehovahs witnesses can talk to jehovah directly on thier mobile phones.
This is from a biblical standpoint. How much evidence for the immortal soul would you like?
Systematic Theology is what one learns in Seminary (or as I did, on my own). It is the logical exgesis of sceripture as opposed to single scripture exgesis which can result in alleged 'proof' for practically any unique teaching.
Let's go over this:
1.) This separation of body and soul is the almost universal destiny of men. The Scriptures, however, teach that Enoch did not die but "God took him," Gen. 5:24, and that he "was translated that he should not see death," Heb. 11:5; also that Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into heaven," 2 Kings 2:11. Some have supposed that, in like manner Moses escaped death, but it is expressly stated that he died, and was buried in the land of Moab. Deut. 34:5, 6. But Paul declared that at the second coming of the Lord, "we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17. Even more explicitly he said "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Cor. 15:51, 52. This is the fashioning anew of "the body of our humiliation that it may be conformed to the body of his glory" foretold in Phil. 3:21.
(2.) The Scriptures, however, teach plainly the continued existence of all men after death.
(a.) It is everywhere assumed as a fact, neither to be doubted, nor proved; but that will be at once received without question.
(b.) The cases of Enoch and Elijah gave signal proof of another world than this into which even men might enter. But they furnished no evidence that any other than these two would go thither. They simply showed that the possible existence of men, otherwise than on this earth, has been actually realized in these servants of God. But, so far from thus furnishing conclusive proof of the future life of other men, the fact that these were not removed through death, but by extraordinary means, naturally suggested the possibility that exemption from death is necessary to that life, and that all those who go down to the grave perish together. It was only to those otherwise taught of the continued existence of the soul, that their removal gave confirmatory proof of such immortality. In like manner, we are taught the same truths by the presence of Moses, and Elijah, at the scene of the Transfiguration. The appearance at various times of angels to men furnishes additional proof of another world. The resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ confirm most conclusively the doctrine of a future life.
(c.) The Scriptures teach, in the account of the creation of man, that his soul did not originate from the dust; but was a direct spiritual creation of God. Gen. 2:7. They make further statements about the difference between soul, and body, confirmatory of the distinction made in their creation. Gen. 25:8; 35:29; Ecc. 12:7; Matt. 10:28; Acts 7:59.
(d.) They make express reference to the existence of the soul after death. 2 Sam. 12:23; Job 19:25-27. [Conant translates this passage. "But I, I know my Redeemer lives, and in aftertime will stand upon the earth; and after this my skin is destroyed, and without my flesh, I shall see God. Whom I, for myself, shall see, and my eyes behold, and not another, when my reins are consumed within me"]. Matt. 22:32; 25:46; Luke 16:19-31; John 11:25; 2 Cor. 5:1-4.
(e.) They make known that this future life is the lot of the wicked, as well as of the righteous; teaching that it is one of happiness to the latter, and of condemnation and misery to the former. Matt. 25:46; John 6:47; 12:25; 1 Cor. 15:17-20.
(f.) They declare the continuance of this, at least until the day of the Resurrection and Final Judgement. Job 21:30; Ecc. 3:17; Luke 14:14; John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15; Rom. 14:10; 1 Cor. 15:51, 52; 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Thess. 4:13-17.
The Scriptures are thus seen to teach conclusively the doctrine of an unending future life of all men. This, as has been stated, is what is commonly referred to as the immortality of the soul.
Before passing from this part of the discussion, special attention is called to the following statements of what is included in this kind of immortality.
1. Unending existence essentially belongs to spiritual natures. When, therefore, the Scriptures have taught that the soul is a spirit, the way is prepared for the metaphysical argument based upon the simplicity of the soul, and its consequent indestructibility. It is common, therefore, to speak of the natural immortality of the soul. By this is meant, that, because of its nature, it has an unending life. It has no elements of dissolution in it. Life belongs to it, because it is spirit. Just as God has made extension, and divisibility, properties of matter, so, has he made unending life a natural property of the spirit.
2. But this essential property of spirit must ever be recognized as one conferred upon it. It is because God has so made spirit, that it has unending life. It is not a property that belongs to it from any necessity in God, or out of God. It is the result of his purpose, or will, and of his power. He has made spirit to be thus, Because he has so willed. Doubtless, had he otherwise chosen, the result would have been different. To believe otherwise is to put an unjustifiable limit upon his power, and upon his absolute freedom of will, as to all outward matters. It thus appears that they speak falsely, even blasphemously, who say that God could not destroy, or annihilate spirit, if he should choose. That which prevents annihilation, is that he has not so chosen, and will not so choose.
The impossibility is not in the lack of power, but in the unchangeableness of his will. This is no imperfection of inability, but the highest perfection of immutability
The immortality is that which is common to both the righteous and the wicked. The death of the soul, and its life, are set forth in the Word of God as something distinct, not only from that of the body, but even from the unending natural life of the soul. The spiritual death of the soul has been described as something different from natural death, and as constituting the most fearful of the penalties inflicted because of sin. It was there shown that the Scriptures describe it in the various aspects of alienation from God, loss of God's favour, and corruption of the moral nature. The true immortality of the Christian consists in the removal of all these evils, and the bestowment upon him of their corresponding blessings. That this is done, and that this is the condition into which he is thus brought will abundantly appear from the following passages of Scripture. Matt. 10 :39; 16:25 (cf. Mark 8:35); 18:9; (parallel passages, Mark 9:45; Luke 9:24; 17:33; John 12:25); 19:17; John 3:36; 5:24, 40; 6:33, 35, 50-58, 63; 20:31; Rom. 6:4; 8:6, 13; 2 Cor. 3:6; Eph. 4:18; 1 John 3:14; 5:12.
The contrast in immortality, between the righteous and the wicked, is very marked. "The wicked is thrust down in his evil doing: but the righteous hath hope in his death." Prov. 14:32. "When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish." Prov. 11:7. But "blessed are the dead which die in the Lord;" . . . . "for their works follow with them." Rev. 14:13.
The happiness of this immortality of the Christian is the greater because it is a state in which he is confirmed forever. The law of this condition, both of the righteous, and the wicked, is laid down in Rev. 22:11. "He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still:and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still:and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still:and he that is holy, let him be made holy still." As the wicked shall not change his state, so shall not the righteous, his. The day of his trial and probation is over, and he stands secure of the bliss of heaven, confirmed by the unfailing promises of God. The scenes, through which he has passed on earth, fill him with no apprehensions that his weakness and insufficiency, will disable him from performing the perfect service of heaven. The recollection of Adam's trial will suggest to him no possibility that he will be subjected to a test which will dissolve forever the bonds which unite him to God. Even the sin of the angels will not alarm him. For he is now assured of that "eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal." Tit. 1:2. This is immortality indeed. This, and not mere continued life, is the life and immortality which he confers, "who abolished death, and brought life and incorruption to light through the gospel." 2 Tim. 1:10.
THE INTERMEDIATE STATE.
The Scriptures teach that the soul and body that have been separated in death, will be reunited at the Judgement Day. Meantime, the body crumbles into dust, and appears to be totally destroyed. The spirit has returned unto God who gave it. Ecc. 12:7. Hence, at his martyrdom, we hear the first dying Christian "calling upon the Lord, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7:59.
It is not in accordance with the methods of God in his revelations to man to answer the many inquiries which curiosity might suggest as to this intermediate state of the soul. But much more is taught about it than would at first be imagined. Such facts as are given are valuable to confirm and strengthen faith, and to give consolation. Those may first be mentioned which are common to the righteous and the wicked, and these may be followed by separate statements of the things wherein they differ.
1. As to those respects in which the condition of the righteous and the wicked is the same.
(1.) The soul exists without a body. Unquestionably it has not the body which it had on earth. But some have thought that it has some kind of a body, some spiritual body, which merely corresponds to, and is only thus identified with that of this life. But Paul's discussion of the resurrection shows, that the "spiritual" body is one that is to be raised out of the grave in which the natural body was buried, and that it is "at the last trump" that "the dead shall be raised," 1 Cor. 15:44, 52-54.
Some have argued, that body of some kind is necessary to give location to these spirits. But a spirit may have location without occupying space as a body does.
(2.) The condition is consequently one of an imperfect life. It is the life of the spirit only, and not that of the man. Human nature is composed of both body and spirit; and his body is as truly a part of a man as is his soul. The condition, therefore, in which disembodied spirits exist, is not that of perfect men, but only of human spirits. This, which is an inference which may be drawn from the two-fold nature of man, is supported by the manner in which the Scriptures refer to the persons in this intermediate state. They are not spoken of as "men," but as "souls," and "spirits." Heb. 12:23; Rev. 6:9; 20:4.
Another proof of this want of perfection of this condition is seen in the fact that the saints attain full entrance into their joy, and the wicked full infliction of their woe, only after the resurrection. Matt. 13:40-43, 49, 50; 25:34, 41, 46; 1 Cor. 15:44-54.
(3.) Both righteous and wicked have conscious life. This might have been inferred from the nature of spirit, which must always be in a state of conscious existence. But it is a plain teaching of the Bible. Luke 16:22-31. The word "Hades;" here means the place of departed spirits, and, as the scene occurs after the death of Lazarus, and before the final judgement, so must it be assigned to the intermediate state. In this the rich man is represented as in conscious torment.
The conscious condition of the righteous is taught in 2 Cor. 5:1-8; Phil. 1:21-24; and also in the passages connected with Paradise. Luke 23:42,43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7; 22:2.
(4.) Neither the righteous nor the wicked are under probation in this intermediate state. Luke 16:22-31; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:11. Even if the language in 1 Pet. 3:19, 20 and 4:6 teaches, as some have taught, that our Lord went to the place of departed spirits, and preached to them; so that to those who had died up to the time of his death was given a probation in the gospel preached to them by him; that would be but a single instance of a favour shown to those who had died before his crucifixion; and, so far from proving a probation beyond the grave, would, from its exceptional character, imply the contrary.
2. The aspects of the intermediate state peculiar to the righteous.
(1.) It is a condition of happiness. Paul declared that "to die is gain," and to depart this life far better than to remain in it. Phil. 1:21-24. He wrote to Timothy, looking forward exultingly to the hour of his death. 2 Tim. 4:6-8. He also referred to his longing for this future, as possessed by him in common with his brethren. 2 Cor. 5:1-8. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the happiness of the latter is described by his being in Abraham's bosom. Luke 16:23.
(2.) It is a condition in which the believer is present with Christ. This is also taught in all the passages referred to in the previous paragraph, except the last; and constitutes in each of them the ground of the happiness which they declare.
(3.) The believer is also said to be in Paradise. Whatever this may mean, whether only a condition or a place, it is unquestionably true that it is intended to convey the idea of the enjoyment of very great happiness. The passages in which Paradise is mentioned are, Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7. That these teach that it is a place can only be denied on the ground that very highly figurative language is used. Only the first of these, however, refers to the presence of Christ with any one, and this contains only his promise to the thief on the cross, "To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise." But the location of Paradise, as made known by the Apostle Paul, 2 Cor. 12:1-4, taken in connection with this first passage, makes it more than probable that it is the place where the saints are with Christ. The Scriptures teach that "Christ was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God." Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; Acts 1:11; Acts 2:33, 34; Acts 7:55, 56; Eph. 1:20; Heb. 10:12; 1 Pet. 3:22. We are also taught that he must there remain "until the times of restoration of all things." Acts 3:21. Now, in the account Paul gives of his ecstatic vision in 2 Cor. 12:1-4, he tells us that he was "Caught up even to the third heaven," and "caught up into Paradise," which locates Paradise either in or above the third heaven, or makes the two identical. So also Rev. 2:7, taken in connection with Rev. 22:2 and 21:10-27, states that the tree of life, "which is in the Paradise of God," is "in the midst of the street" of "that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God," in which was no temple, "for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are the temple thereof," and is "on either side of the river," which is described as "a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God, and of the Lamb." The place of the abode of the saints is with Christ, who is in the heavens with God. It is to that place that most probably the name Paradise is given in the Scriptures.
(4.) In that abode the saints are not probably inactive. Some have thought this because their condition is spoken of as one of "rest" and "sleep." But evidently the former of these terms is used simply to declare the end of the toils and labours of this life, and the enjoyment of exemption from their present spiritual as well as temporal trials. This does not imply that there are not intellectual and spiritual duties and meditations suitable to that abode, such as may give due scope to that activity, which seems essential to personal conscious spirits. The "sleep" more probably refers to the appearance of the body in death, and is beautifully expressive of the calm repose with which the Christian sinks into final dissolution.
(5.) Neither is the intermediate state a place of cleansing from sin. That it is so is held by the Church of Rome. That church teaches that at death all unbaptized adults, and all who have fallen into and continued in mortal sin after Baptism, go immediately to hell. All who have been baptized, and remain in union with that Church, and have attained a life of Christian perfection, go immediately to heaven. Unbaptized infants occupy what is called "the Limbus infantum," a place in the higher part of hell, which the flames do not reach, and suffer only a "paenam damni" (penalty of loss), and have no share in the "paenam sensus" (penalty of actual suffering), which afflicts adult sinners. But "the great mass of partially sanctified Christians, dying in fellowship with the church, yet still encumbered with imperfections, go to purgatory, where they suffer, more or less intensely, for a longer or shorter period, until their sins are both atoned for and purged out, when they are translated to heaven, during which intermediate period they may be efficiently assisted by the prayers and labours of their friends on earth."
"They confess that this doctrine is not taught distinctly in Scripture, but maintain, 1st, that it follows necessarily from their general doctrine of the satisfaction for sins; 2d, that Christ and the Apostles taught it incidentally. . . . They refer to Matt. 12:32; 1 Cor. 3:15." Hodge's Outlines of Theology, pp. 556, 557.
But the first of these passages is manifestly but a strong way of declaring that the sin referred to shall never be pardoned, without authorizing the inference that there are other sins which will be pardoned in the world to come. The second passage, by the various things which are built upon the true foundation, which, if false or insufficient, shall be burned, refers not to personal character, but to teachings.
This doctrine of purgatory is based upon the very unscriptural theory of salvation through personal works and sufferings, which the Church of Rome holds, in connection with sacramental grace, to be supplementary to the meritorious work of Christ. While it has no support from Scripture, it is opposed to all that the Scriptures teach about the intermediate state of the righteous.
3. The aspects of the intermediate state peculiar to the wicked.
The Scripture teaching here is much more meagre. The four statements already mentioned, in which their condition and that of the righteous are similar, comprise almost all that is said. As peculiar to them, however, may be added.
(1.) That Christ, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, speaks of their condition as (a) one of torment Luke 16:23-25, 28, (b) from which there is no escape to the condition of bliss of the righteous, verse 26, and (c) as endured in a place of torment, vs. 23, 28.
(2.) Those who interpret 1 Pet. 3:19, 20 as referring to a personal preaching by Christ to the dead in Hades, necessarily hold that the wicked are "in prison." But, otherwise, we have no other proof than seems to be conveyed in the "impassable gulf" mentioned in Luke 16:26.
(3.) It is a place in which they are reserved for punishment in the day of judgement. 2 Pet. 2:9.
(4.) The only place spoken of in connection with the wicked during the intermediate state is Hades, or the place of departed spirits, which is always translated Hell in the King James version, but is transferred in the Canterbury Revision. The passages in which Hades is used are Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14.
I posted this earlier this year in a debate with a Bible Student apologist who was spewing Watchtower views over at [email protected]
Rex
kevin
Geez, people are posting whole books now.
The wt teaches that we are only a very complicated organic machine that is animated by an impersonal life force. As this impersonal life force leaves the body and disappears, the body becomes dead and all existence stops. No trace of any kind lives on, except that jehovah may have taken a 'snapshot' of the person so that he can create a new one if he feels like it.
Good News. According to my new religion Spaceism you can look forward to leaving this planet and becoming one of the myriad of beautiful stars in the galaxy. Now that really IS something to look forward to. Coming soon will be www.spaceism.net and you will be able to find out all about this new and improved religion that will change your life. Or at the very least make you smile and not all religions do that do they?
The only reason religion exists is because most people are afraid to die and ultimately they are afraid of not existing anymore.
The sad fact is, you live you die and then the worms eat you.
Most people can't handle that so they beg and grovel to an unseen being and hang out around people that reassure them that everything will be O.K.
You go to Norway
Yeah, Zep, but only if you've been very, very bad.
You go to Norway
lol
Shhiiit, I'm already there, does that i'm d...
I knew there was something about this place
Finn (as in "finito - the end")
