Burn,
How do you know it's not my God-given conscience? How can you decide which morals are from God and which are not?
Christians: Do You Uphold the Sabbath Law?
by serotonin_wraith 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
Sad emo
Sero - the Old Testament laws need to be interpreted in light of scriptures such as the following:
Hosea 6:6:
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings
Mark 2: 23-27:
23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"
25 He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."
27 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.
The Pharisees had serious problems with Jesus' teachings, NOT because they were wrong, BUT because he taught in light of scriptures such as the one in Hosea above. They totally missed or possibly even chose to ignore his point. If people want to stick rigidly to the written letter, they are free to do so, likewise, if they choose to interpret those written letters in the light of Jesus'/the Holy Spirit's teaching, they are equally free to do so - neither way is wrong or against the Law (sorry, a difficult concept to wrap your head around maybe!) - read Romans chapters 2-6
Finally, to complement the above!
2 Corinthians 3:
4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life
Sorry for dragging you off on a Bible study!
-
serotonin_wraith
sad emo,
Hosea 6:6:
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice , and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings
It seems to be talking about burnt offerings, not the Sabbath. I can agree there are verses in the NT that seem to nullify the commandments to do with burnt offerings. I thought the Sabbath day was supposed to be a benefit to the people, not a sacrifice.
The story with Jesus - he's describing a life or death situation - hunger. That's fine. I thought it could be broken under such circumstances.
27 Then he said to them, " The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.
Exactly. The rule was made for man. God/Jesus is above it, so that's why he said the rule didn't apply to him. But none of us are gods, we're men/women, so doesn't the rule still apply to us?
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life
If it's written in the Bible, shouldn't it be followed? I could use my spirit to say that homosexuality is fine, and the Bible had it wrong. We can all basically rewrite the book to suit what we feel is right. It's in my spirit to feel that the Biblical God sending me to hell because there is no reason to believe in him over the 3000 other gods is unfair. Therefore, I'll go with my spirit and think of God as fairer than that rather than the words which say the only way to salvation is through Jesus.
It's no wonder so many people have so many interpretations of the Bible, and so many different Christian groups exist.
-
serotonin_wraith
This is something a pastor wrote to me in a debate I had a couple of years back on this subject-
You observe rightly that the Sabbath law is contained in the Ten Commandments and that many Christians today ignore this. However, I do not believe it is accurate to say that this "isn’t something reflected today in Christian teaching." I agree that many Christians are inconsistent on Sabbath observance, but submit that it is not due to the untenable-ness or anachronism of this moral law. Inconsistency in practice does not necessarily connote a problem with the system. It can also mean a problem with the practitioner. Though I recognize certain temporal aspects of the Biblical laws regarding the Sabbath (e.g. plowing of fields in the seventh year, Jubilee, seventh-day, etc.), the Sabbath principle is still abiding for today, and we Christian ministers declare it to be such. The fact that I do not picket Wal-Mart does not mean I condone it being open for business on the Lord’s Day. I "picket" Wal-Mart by not patronizing it on Sunday. I’ll admit that sometimes my practice is not as good as my theology in other areas of Sabbath observance, but the problem is not with the Bible, but with me!
The man who was executed for picking up sticks on the Sabbath (Num. 15:32ff.) was one who did so in direct defiance of Almighty God. This wasn’t a guy who innocently went out one morning to start fire to keep warm. His actions were a direct challenge to the kingship of Yahweh’s rule. The context shows it as an example of such defiance (v. 30) as to be liable to capital punishment (v. 35).
It’s interesting that pre-Second Temple Judaism was much derelict in its Sabbath observance. Was that because they believed it irrelevant? Hardly. They viewed Sabbath laws as interfering with their selfish gains (Isaiah 5:8) and failed to see that they would instead prosper by showing their love for God through obedience.I have no desire to become a Christian, but if I did, I don't have a clue where I'd start! One mistake could mean the difference between heaven and hell. I would have thought God would have made his word so much easier to understand than this.
-
mouthy
I believe Christ fulfilled the law... Do I keep the Sabbath?( Not in the sense you mean it.) My understanding of the Sabbath is >it was given to US rest not on a pacific day ( Sunday) It says we should work so many days then rest ...So it was for US he wanted that day kept.
As for the Christians that try to impose their wishes on others I find it offensive. We should live & let live. You see I consider myself a Christian.But I find it so much easier to do as Christ advised. Love all ,even enemies...dont judge, "BECAUSE HE WILL DO THE JUDGING OF ALL"
That makes it easier for me!!!!!!! -
BurnTheShips
How do you know it's not my God-given conscience? How can you decide which morals are from God and which are not
You are ultimately obliged to follow your own conscience. To do otherwise would not be moral. This means that the exercise of your conscience should be free from external coercion by human authority. However, this does not mean that your conscience is free from the demands of truth. I do not believe that we are morally free to follow our conscience while ignoring the truth. I believe we are bound to form our conscience in accord with the objective truth of the divine law. Your conscience can be distorted or perverted.
Burn
-
The Oracle
mounthy,
it's refreshing to read a post that makes good sense!!
not that my posts make a lot of sense all the time. I do clown around a bit too much here.
If all those who claimed to be Christian had the same attitude as you the world would be a far less violent place. Unfortunately, most "Christians" over the years have been very far from christ-like
The Oracle
-
BurnTheShips
I have no desire to become a Christian, but if I did, I don't have a clue where I'd start! One mistake could mean the difference between heaven and hell. I would have thought God would have made his word so much easier to understand than this.
It isn't all about the "mistakes" themselves, it is also about the intentions for why we do what we do. To greater or lesser degrees we all labor under imperfect knowledge, and an omniscient judge will know that.
-
BurnTheShips
It's no wonder so many people have so many interpretations of the Bible, and so many different Christian groups exist.
2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures
That is how I see it.
Burn
-
Sad emo
It seems to be talking about burnt offerings, not the Sabbath. I can agree there are verses in the NT that seem to nullify the commandments to do with burnt offerings. I thought the Sabbath day was supposed to be a benefit to the people, not a sacrifice.
You're doing here exactly what Jesus condemned the Pharisees for, and what my main point was about! You've taken the verse literally, as it is written and failed to apply it! Actually, this verse from Hosea was quoted by Jesus in Matthew's (?) version of Jesus' disciples picking corn on the Sabbath - he applied it, to that particular situation not only as it was written.
If you want a layman's interpretation of Hosea 6:6, try something like this - sure, obey the rules, but get your priorities right! God would rather have you worship Him by bringing honour to His name through giving a good witness in your life (by serving and being right with others etc) than all the rituals, church services etc which, whilst they are useful and appreciated by God, should not constitute the sole practice of your religion.
I believe that's what Jesus meant when he said believers would no longer worship in set places but in spirit and in truth - even more so because there is no longer a need for sacrifice either.
Exactly. The rule was made for man.
I don't understand why you chose to chop off the second part "not man for the Sabbath" Jesus meant that the Sabbath was made for man's benefit (which he is quite free to ignore at his peril!) NOT so that man had a law to obey rigidly. When he said that he was Lord over the Sabbath, he was making a statement of both his humanity and his divinity (implied by the linking word "so"). If I wanted to go really broad theology, I could also suggest that since Christians are 'in Christ' they too become, by association, 'lords of the sabbath'!
If it's written in the Bible, shouldn't it be followed?
Again - "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life"
I could use my spirit to say that homosexuality is fine, and the Bible had it wrong.
That would be using YOUR spirit, not God's - there's a huge difference. And yes, that's why some churches get it wrong, horribly wrong.