Lies: Xtians like Muslim Extremeists

by Rex B13 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    One frequently hears the disinformation and lies from people like Bishop Spong and others about how 'fundalmentalist Christians are a terroristic threat'. One must first ask what do these people have as an agenda, truth or promoting their own cause? Spong is relatively widely known as a 'alleged' Christian who takes little of the Bible at reasonable face-value. Let's examine the facts on this question: Can fundamentalist Christians be compared to Islamic fundamentalists?

    Are Christians and their scriptures no different than Muslim terrorists and others who use violence in the name of God to destroy their enemies? What can we say in light of our own dark Church history and also graphic passages found in portions of the Old Testament that do not seem to cast any better light on the roots and actions of our own faith tradition? The following are some of my reflections on these questions.

    Christians who use violence in the name of God to destroy their enemies have no justification for their actions from Jesus Christ, his life and teachings as found in the New Testament. Whereas, Muslims who are engaged in violence and destruction of anyone who opposes Islam, have ample justification for their actions from the Qur'an and the life and sayings of prophet Muhammad. Suffice it to say that it is beyond doubt that the prophet of Islam did encourage the killing and intimidation of his enemies, not just in self defense as it is commonly reported by Muslims, but in the promotion of the cause of God and the spread of Islam. Needles to say, the actions of the prophet were in direct contradiction to the teachings and actions of Jesus Christ and his disciples. So the point is not that Christians have never resorted to violence and other horrible atrocities. They have indeed committed many horrible acts, but when they have done this, they have betrayed the very person that they claim to follow. But when Muslims commit such acts, they can in fact claim that they are following the example of their prophet and thus fulfilling the will of God and promoting His cause. That, certainly, is a big difference!
    When we turn our attention to the Old Testamet and look at passages that are found in the book of Joshua regarding the extermination of the Canaanites living in the land, we can still notice a dramatic difference in those passages and the events in the early history of Islam. The primary theme in those accounts is the issue of God's holiness. Even hundreds of years before the invasion of Canaan, God had told Abraham that the sins of the people living in the land had not reached its limit, but when the inhabitants had defiled the land to its limit, the land was going to "throw them up." In fact, God later warned the nation of Israel to be careful in not repeating the sins of the previous people, otherwise the land was going to throw them up too. So we see that God is using Israel as an instrument of His justice to purge the land of its sinfulness and later in history God used other nations like the Assyrians and the Babylonians as His instruments to cleanse the land by destroying the people of Israel for their sinfulness.
    However, when one reads the early accounts of prophet Muhammad's raids and wars, not only one sees no mention of the theme of divine holiness and its opposition to sin, but the primary motivations that one constantly encounters are the looting of the enemies and the obtaining of booty and the spoils of war or the relief and pleasures of Paradise or conquering the enemies and spreading the rule of the prophet. I am not just repeating an old stereotypical charge against Islam. There is the most ancient Muslim biography of prophet Muhammad, written by Ibn Ishaq in the second century of the Islamic era (translated by A. Guillaume and published by Oxford University Press in 1955). I truly encourage all Muslims and non-Muslims to read this book to see for themselves the violence in the actions of prophet Muhammad and his early followers.
    Another important point that we need to keep in mind is the fact that the divine command for the destruction of the few cities of Canaan, was for a specific people, a specific time and place and a specific purpose. Nowhere in the later Old Testament period do we see God commanding the nation of Israel to go and attack other pagan nations, either as self-defense or as a way to promote faith in the true God of heaven and earth. However, in the Qur'an, we encounter general commands to kill and destroy the enemies of Islam that are applicable for all times and places and people groups. It is beyond dispute that from the earliest times, right after the death of the prophet, Muslim splinter groups began fighting, killing and assassinating even each other, in the name of God. The history of Islam, down to the present day is filled with the appeals of various Muslims to ever-applicable Qur'anic passages to destroy and kill their enemies.

    Muslims generally believe that since Islam is the final great monotheistic religion, it is superior in every respect to Judaism and Christianity. Students were always told that Judaism was like elementary school, Christianity was like high school and Islam is like university. Each religion was from God, but each one became progressively higher and better. Now the question that we must ask is this, how can Islam claim to have a superior ethics to the New Testament, and yet resort back to the use and justification of violence, elements that were supposedly part of the early Jewish tradition? It seems that Islam not only has NOT improved on the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament in regard to the use of force, but that in fact Islam has gone back many steps in this regard.

    Here is the text of the message the Prophet Mohammad sent to the Julanda brothers through the intermediary of his Messengers, 'Amr bin al-'As al-Sahmi and Abu Zaid al-Ansari.
    "Peace be upon the one who follows the right path! I call you to Islam. Accept my call, and you shall be unharmed. I am God's Messenger to mankind, and the word shall be carried out upon the miscreants. If, therefore, you recognize Islam, I shall bestow power upon you. But if you refuse to accept Islam, your power shall vanish, my horses shall camp on the expanse of your territory and my prophecy shall prevail in your kingdom."

    The historian al-Baladhuri, writing barely two and half centuries after the coming of the Messengers to Sohar, described the event in these terms:
    "When the people of Oman shall have responded to the evidence of truth and shall have promised obedience to God and His prophet, then Amr, their Amir, and Abu Zayid would be made responsible for conducting the prayers, for conveying Islam to the people and for teaching them the Quran and the precepts of the religion."

    Muslims in the West often claim that Islam stands for "no compulsion in religion". Is not the sunna of their own prophet contradicting them? This is where we get the phrase, "Sunni" muslims. Iran is primarily "Shiiite" and opposed to the former in many political squabbles. An example is the Iran-Iraq war.

    There are many issues one needs to look at when evaluating the character of a person. There is no doubt that Muhammad had also a great many good traits and achieved important reforms in Arabia that were for the good. The claim, however, is not only that he is a reformer, but that he is the spokesman for God and the model for mankind and as such the standard is put higher and we need to look at all he does not only the positive features that are emphasized by the Muslims in their books, speeches and web sites.
    One of the most telling observations about the character of people is how they deal with their enemies. When we are put under pressure by being challenged and questioned, then our real character and personality is revealed that might easily be hidden when everything is under control.
    The flawless character of Muhammad is often used as evidence for him being the prophet of God and his message, the Qur'an, to be the very word of God.
    The following are names of people whose execution was suggested, requested or ordered by Muhammad. (Jesus never had such a list!) Many of them were assassinated, some got away for reasons of unforeseen circumstances. But deeds are judged by intention and the intention or request for assassination is serious in itself.
    There are also acceptable judgements by Muhammad after a proper trial. It might help to point those out for contrast and to better understand what exactly is reprehensible in the other cases.
    Ka`b bin al-Ashraf
    Sallam Ibn Abu'l-Huqayq (Abu Rafi)
    Al-Nadr bin al-Harith
    `Uqba bin Abi Mu`ayt
    `Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul al-`Aufi
    Umaiya bin Khalaf Abi Safwan
    `Amr b. Jihash
    An anonymous man
    Ibn Sunayna
    Abd Allah Ibn Sa`d Ibn Abi Sarh
    Abu `Afak
    `Asma' Bint Marwan
    The Meccan Ten:
    Ikrimah Ibn Abi Jahl
    Habbar Ibn al-Aswad
    Miqyas Ibn Sababah al-Laythi
    Abd Allah Ibn Sa`d Ibn Abi Sarh (more detail in the above article)
    Al-Huwayrith Ibn Nuqaydh
    Abd Abbah Ibn Hilal Ibn Khatal al-Adrami
    Hind Bint Utbah
    Sarah the mawlat of `Amr Ibn Hashim
    Fartana
    Qaribah
    Al-Yusayr b. Rizam and Khalid b. Sufyan b. Nubayh
    Ibn Sunayna
    What really happened to the Banu Qurayza
    This is the url to a site essay explaining this early incident of terror by the 'prophet' Mohammed.
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Jews/BQurayza/treaty.html

    Excessive cruelty in the cases of Kinana b. al-Rabi`
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Enemies/kinana.html

    and the people from Urayna.
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Enemies/urayna.html

    I do recognize the efforts of mainstream muslims to secularize their faith, for it is IN NEED of secularization or it is a threat to world peace and maybe even civilization itself. We always hear the NOW crowd whining about Christians but why do they NOT go to Saudi Arabia, a moderate muslim country and try to 'free' their sisters?
    Probably for the same reason that animal rights activists never throw paint (or hurl insults) on leather bound motorcyclists!
    To those out there like Norm and Ginny, I challenge you to look at what you are saying and view the facts instead of repeating the rabid ramblings of those who hate Christianity and Judaism simply because of bigotry.
    Rex

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    Hi, Rex!

    You present several comparisons here:

    Are Christians like Muslim extremists?

    Can fundamentalist Christians be compared to Islamic fundamentalists?

    Are Christians and their scriptures no different than Muslim terrorists?

    In responding to your other post, I quickly learned that any Christian who uses violence is no true Christian in your book. The Crusades, Inquisition, and other historical violence attributed to the influence of Christianity you discount. These atrocities were not committed by "true Christians." That leaves us with only non-violent Christians to compare to Muslim extremists and terrorists, not a very fair comparison.

    It would be more fair to ask, "Does the Bible promote violence? Does the Qur'an promote violence? Are believers in either holy books influenced to commit violent acts?"

    I would like to see the "ample justification for [violent] actions from the Qur'an and the life and sayings of prophet Muhammed." As with the Bible, I think it is a matter of interpretation and choosing a verse that fits one's aims. People have used the Bible to justify slavery, intolerance, and killing. The same is true of the Qur'an.

    I don't see a big difference between the story of Joshua and the motives of Muslim fundamentalists. They, too, want to purge the land of sinfulness and believe that God backs their aims, and that they are an instrument of his justice. It's not quite so pleasant when we are considered the sinners, is it?

    As for booty and spoils of war, the Israelites were not above carting this off themselves.

    I have not seen the passages you speak of that encourage Muslims to fight and kill their enemies. I have seen passages permitting them to act in self-defense, but even then being careful not to harm women, children, and innocent people. Since you don't hold the Crusades to be representative of true Christian behavior, it is only fair that I discount the early history of Islam, too. All that early killing and assassination was only for a specific time, place, and purpose, I'm sure.

    As I said in the other post, violence and the fanaticism that breeds violence is no stranger to either Christianity or Islam. True believers have much in common, whatever their creed.

    Ginny

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    I give up with you, Ginny!
    Sheesh, the evidence is there for all to see. Isn't it about time you quit trying to "save face"? You're wrong and you patently ignore the evidence.
    Focus: teachings.
    Focus: inherent differences.
    a) the life of Christ. His example to us.
    b) the life of Mohammed. His example to muslims.
    c) the death and changeover of responsibility, comparing the apostles to the gangsters in charge of Islam.
    You didn't take time to read the post and the links. If you did then I cannot believe your collosal denial of the facts. You wonder why I have to get blunt when dealing with you?
    No amount of evidence will crack your lack of humility. Ginny has her view and it will always be right. I can be like that at times. That's one reason that I recognize it in you. ;-)
    I forgive you but I am done with this. I tried my best to show you my reasoning. We will just have to disagree, though I think that we have seen Muslims who ignore the basic violent example of their religious leaders are ripe for conversion to Christianity or agnosticism. Why do you think the Islamic mullahs are so dead set against modernizing their culture? They are losing adherents who become 'secret Christians'. We have evangelists that work extremely carefully and discreetly bring the Chrstian hope to Islamic peoples who are held in bondage to religious hegemony. Not unlike Catholicism of 1000 years ago, the original apostate church who gained power and absolute corruption. Then God brought the reformation.
    Now we see the Catholic church has done a complete 'about face' and they have become much better for it.
    Turkey is a good example (in their reaction to this present conflict) of a Islamic majority that is generally moderate.
    Take care,
    Rex
    p.s. I'll be gone for a few days, so I can't reply anyways.

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    Hiya, Pappy!

    I give up with you, Ginny!

    You're very wise. I'm a stubborn, mean ol' woman.

    Sheesh, the evidence is there for all to see. Isn't it about time you quit trying to "save face"? You're wrong and you patently ignore the evidence.

    Maybe our perceptions of the evidence are different, Rex. If you include the bloody history of the Old Testament, I see little difference between the background of Islam and the background of Christianity. And I think it's an unfair comparison to choose nonviolent Christians to compare to violent Muslim extremists.

    Focus: teachings.
    Focus: inherent differences.
    a) the life of Christ. His example to us.
    b) the life of Mohammed. His example to muslims.
    c) the death and changeover of responsibility, comparing the apostles to the gangsters in charge of Islam.

    I've looked at many sites that discuss the terrorist acts in context of the Qur'an. I have not seen any verses justifying the killing of innocent people. Muslim extremists interpret and twist the Qur'an to their own violent ends, just as some "Christians" do with the Bible.

    A grotesque distortion

    Most importantly, we need to think about how to undermine the appeal of these terrorist groups. Most Islamic scholars interpret jihad as the striving for justice (and principally an inner striving to purify the self). But extremists equate jihad with total war. Islam strictly prohibits targeting innocent civilians, yet these extremists developed convoluted arguments to justify murdering women and children. Religious scholars need to get out the message loud and clear that bin Laden's version of Islam is a grotesque distortion of their faith. Those scholars should be speaking out, not just in the U.S., but all over the world, too.

    Religion has two sides. One is spiritual: It unifies people, transcending national and religious boundaries. The other side is all about boundaries: To be Catholic is to be not Protestant; to be Christian is to be non-Muslim; to be Muslim is to be not Jewish. Extremists focus on the divisive aspect of religion and ignore its spiritual, universal aspects.

    Let's not fall into the same trap.

    from http://www.usatoday.com/news/comment/2001-10-01-ncguest2.htm

    As for comparing the examples of Christ and Mohammed, the main difference I see is that Christ will act violently against infidels in the future, returning in military splendor with a sword in his mouth. Mohammed felt he was cleansing a holy place from infidels while he lived. His writings admonish his followers only to act in self-defense and not to kill innocent people.

    I am only vaguely familiar with the organizational structure of Islam, so I don't know the character of those currently in charge. As I understand it, there are many branches of Islam, just as there are many denominations within Christianity.

    You didn't take time to read the post and the links. If you did then I cannot believe your collosal denial of the facts. You wonder why I have to get blunt when dealing with you?

    I read your post carefully at least twice, Rex. I did not look at the links about the violence of Mohammed. If you brush away the violence during the conquest of Canaan, the violence of the Crusades and the Inquisition, I am not interested in hearing you moaning and groaning about the violence of Mohammed.

    No amount of evidence will crack your lack of humility. Ginny has her view and it will always be right. I can be like that at times. That's one reason that I recognize it in you. ;-)

    If I never changed my views or admitted I was wrong, I would never have been able to leave the Jehovah's Witnesses, Rex. Your arguments do not make sense to me and are extremely biased.

    I forgive you but I am done with this. I tried my best to show you my reasoning. We will just have to disagree, though I think that we have seen Muslims who ignore the basic violent example of their religious leaders are ripe for conversion to Christianity or agnosticism.

    Considering that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, I am not very convinced, Rex. Meanwhile, watch out for the 'secret humanists' who work extremely carefully and discreetly to free fundamentalists from religious hegemony.

    So, do you like RC cola and moon pies, or what? Norm still wants to know.

    Ginny

  • Zep
    Zep

    Rex, you mention Bishop Spong.

    So I'll just slip in a plug here:

    For anyone who's interested. A good book to read is 'Saving the from Fundamentalism'....Wouldn't you agree Rex.

  • LDH
    LDH

    Ginny,

    Thank you for taking the time to save me from having to respond.

    In short, Rex, I'll say this:

    "We have the true religion and God will kill all non-believers"

    is only one short step away from:

    "We have the true religion and God has authorized us to kill all non-believers."

    Your version of Christ works for YOU and YOUR salvation, but please stop trying to push it off on the rest of the world.

    Lisa

  • Julie
    Julie

    Hello Rex my dear,

    Oh come now my love! I cannot believe you actually said this! I am going to make some minor editing changes and have you read this:

    :However, when one reads the early accounts of prophet (insert Old Testament prophet of choice name here) raids and wars, not only one sees no mention of the theme of divine holiness and its opposition to sin, but the primary motivations that one constantly encounters are the looting of the enemies and the obtaining of booty and the spoils of war or the relief and pleasures of Paradise or conquering the enemies and spreading the rule of the Bible-God and his current Representative on Earth.

    Rex, you cannot distance Christianity from the Old Testament and claim one should only look to the New Testament regarding a bible based religion. I am sorry to have to tell you these things darling. The NT relies on the OT to prove divinity and what have you. You can not merely claim only the ones that "foretell Jesus' arrival" and other various "prophecies" that may help to enforce the message of your choice. Too often the nasty parts of the bible are used to base horrible behavior. It is collected into one book, the bible which Christianity claims is the inspired word of God. No picking and choosing here my love. Sorry.

    :I am not just repeating an old stereotypical charge against Islam. There is the most ancient Muslim biography of prophet Muhammad, written by Ibn Ishaq in the second century of the Islamic era (translated by A. Guillaume and published by Oxford University Press in 1955). I truly encourage all Muslims and non-Muslims to read this book to see for themselves the violence in the actions of prophet Muhammad and his early followers.

    I encourage all Christians to read the Old Testament in it's entirity and tell me if they think it is from or inspired by a God of love. I cannot see it myself and don't imagine how anyone can. How you can do it is a mystery to me. Of course I love you all the more for it.

    Take care dear,
    Julie

  • Kinsman
    Kinsman

    Greetings,

    Religious extremism is often associated with fundamentalist movements. These movements are factually unhealthy and dangerous no matter the mainline religious source of the movement. One need only consider Jim Jones, Waco, planned-parenthood pipe bombings, the teachings of JWs, Christian Scientists, etc regarding selective medical treatments to know that Christian fundamentalist movements can be very dangerous.

    Moreover, fundamentalist movements often promote divisive sectarianism and an unwarranted heightened view of oneself and community. One need only look at this site to see some eye opening similarities between the views of Usama Bin Laden and our own religious right Jerry Falwell and Pat Roberson.

    Take the quiz: http://funnystrange.com/quiz/

    Regards – Kinsman

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    I guess it will not acomplish anything to keep arguing with everyone. You will see it as you see it, regrardless of how stark the evidencial differences are. I grieve for you all, friends, kindred people, who did not find God on their way out.
    I get too overzealous and overbearing but I swear to you, it's not for sake of winning a debate or pride. I just want you to see the other side. I want you to see the light of the son and what He has done through me. You'll find there is mystery and not all about the whys and hows can be answered. That's where faith comes in.
    Listen for His voice, some dark night when you have come to the end of yourself and there is nowhere to turn for comfort. He is there for it is God will that all shall be saved (jn3.16). None have sinned too much to be forgiven (Rom.6.23). It is by grace that you are saved (Eph.2.6).Salvation is there for the asking (Rom.10.-11).
    BTW, dump the NWT and get a real Bible.
    Love always,
    Rex

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    Hey, Norm!

    Rex told me in chat that he's not a southerner. Gone forever is my image of Rex in a white suit and string tie, thumping the Bible in either Georgia, Alabama, or Mississippi. It turns out that he's from that apostate mecca of the western world--OHIO. I invited him to our next Midwest Apost-O-fest, and he said he'd love to join us! He might even reciprocate by taking me to a Promise Keepers rally.

    Aren't you green with envy? I may get to meet Rex! Nah nah nah nah!

    Ginny

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