Just listen to these guys. It's hilarious!!! http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2761&reply=24#msg24
abrother - Apostate Bashing
Is anyone ready for some apostate bashing? I know I'm ready for it.
abrother
humbleman -
hey a abrother you can help me bash them im having a discusion on 607bce with them now.
http://community.beliefnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10362&page=8 here is the link
This message was last edited at 22:09 - 08/02/2008
[edit] [delete] Posted at 22:08 - 08/02/2008
abrother -
Humbleman
I did. I get back with them next week.
[edit] [delete] Posted at 10:46 - 09/02/2008
humbleman -
thanks bro i know there is a brother on there who they are really confusing. glad you came to help
[edit] [delete] Posted at 11:05 - 09/02/2008
baikinman -
Has I mentioned in a previous post. I do have serious concerns about visiting apostate website, even if it is with the good intention of defending The Truth. It does not matter how much you can proof that 607 is the true date, apostate's by their very nature, will ignore and argue that date and claim that 587 or 589 is the correct date.
It seems a pointless task. If there is a JW on that site trying to find answers and maybe struggling a little, I understand the desire to help. But really, should that brother or sister really be studying himself and talking with the elders or other spiritual qualified persons? I really think it is wise to leave such websites and forums alone and just let them get on with.
Don't get me wrong I think it is great that a couple of brothers here have designed and published great websites on subject's such as 607 BCE and The NGO's and more recently on the issue of child abuse.
I also think it is comendable that you want to help the brother that the apostates seem to be confusing. But we really need to be careful. Maybe I am speaking out of personal experience and maybe I am not as strong as others here. But should we really be there discussing spiritual things with aposates.
I think we really need to heed the counsil at: 2 Corinthians 6 14-18
14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be′li‧al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever?
16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’”
18 “‘And I shall be a father to YOU, and YOU will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.”
Just by going to such sites are we not becoming unevenly yoked? Should we as faithful people really have anything to do with such unfaithful apostates?
Also we should treat apostates as if they have been disfellowshipped. We would never talk about spiritual things with such a person. We should have nothing to do with them. That also includes going to Internet forums, and various websites.
We should be using our time wisely. Spending our time 'Apostate bashing' is wasting the time we could have used in a more upbuilding way in our worship to Jehovah. Apsotates have made their choice, they do not want to be apart of Jehovah's organisation. Instead of throwing pearls before swine, we would be better of trying to reach honest hearted ones that truely are seaking out the Truth and want to worship Jehovah.
I am sorry if I have caused offence. I know I am not spiritual qualified and I know I am still working hard to regain my privilages with in the congregation and to strengthen my self spiritually. I am just voicing my concern.
[edit] [delete] Posted at 06:06 - 11/02/2008
baikinman -
Sorry, I copied and pasted that scripture from the WT Library 2007 which is why it went a bit funny. Verse 15 is meant to read:
15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be'li'al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever?
[edit] [delete] Posted at 07:50 - 11/02/2008
humbleman -
hey brother you haven't caused any offence in fact i really appreciate your care and concern. the brother who im am trying to help on there im going to send him a message and try give him some advice. it would be helpful if he could join here for encouragement but m not sure if al is letting any more join?
[edit] [delete] Posted at 00:53 - 12/02/2008
abrother -
humbleman
I'm not going to be there that long. I'm going to give them a hard time. They think they know it all, but far from it.
[edit] [delete] Posted at 14:30 - 12/02/2008
humbleman -
hey abrother yep i agree they do think they know it all. it very annoying lol its like talking to a brick wall. there was one scripture auldsoul came up with its jeremiah 27v16-18 how do we explain this since it implies the Jews were already serving the king of Babylon?
[edit] [delete] Posted at 21:44 - 12/02/2008
baikinman -
Humbleman said:
"its like talking to a brick wall."
Which is exactly what it is....Talking to a brick wall. So really, then, why bother?
[edit] [delete] Posted at 03:50 - 13/02/2008
JimSpace -
"its jeremiah 27v16-18 how do we explain this since it implies the Jews were already serving the king of Babylon?"
See:
http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/appendix.html#timeline and 617 and 609 BCE. Jeremiah prophesied during King Zedekiah's rebellion, which was also during the initial exile, not the desolating exile from when the 70-years begin.
[edit] [delete] Posted at 08:25 - 13/02/2008
abrother -
Thanks Jim
I will not be on that site for that long. I'm going to tell like it is and that is it.
[edit] [delete] Posted at 15:59 - 13/02/2008
grissom6471 -
Baikinman, why is it that people always find it necessary to inform others of the need to "toe the Society party line" as it goes.
In other words, so many forget this scriptural counsel that since the apostles are not masters over our faith, why is any human today trying to be.
The reason that it is said that we do not go to apostate sites is that many have lost faith over the things said. Many, but not all, and certainly not us.
"We should be using our time wisely. Spending our time 'Apostate bashing' is wasting the time we could have used in a more upbuilding way in our worship to Jehovah."
And if you or others were masters over our faith, that would be fine counsel. But to many this is not a waste of time, it is a valuable use of it.
To me riding in a car and taking not a homes is a waste of time.
" Apsotates have made their choice, they do not want to be apart of Jehovah's organisation. "
Theirs is an uninformed choice.
"Instead of throwing pearls before swine, we would be better of trying to reach honest hearted ones that truely are seaking out the Truth and want to worship Jehovah."
And those so-called honest hearted ones are influenced by what they read here, there and everywhere.
Thus we all need to fight the good fight and put of a strong unified force. This message was last edited at 11:27 - 16/02/2008
[edit] [delete] Posted at 11:11 - 16/02/2008
abrother -
Grissom6471-486923764893049847837
Nice hearing from you. I have been giving Brandon Harper a hard time on Beliefnet. Humbleman gave me the connection on the site and it's page above.
[edit] [delete] Posted at 11:16 - 16/02/2008
grissom6471 -
I find that this 607 vs 587 to be a waste of time because both sides are not seeing the forest through the trees.
The focus of Jehovah's WItnesses is on the ending of the times of the gentiles and the establishment of the kingdom. That ending is based on the beginning. The beginning is not based on the destruction of Jerusalem, it is based on when the kings in the line of David sitting on Jehovah's throne ceased being sovereign rulers. That happened not at the destruction of Jerusalem but earler. [edit] [delete] Posted at 11:16 - 16/02/2008
JimSpace -
Ezekiel prophesied in the 7th year of the 617 BCE exile that the crown of Judah’s royal line (of David) would be removed and given to someone else deserving who has the legal right. (Ezekiel 20:1; 21:26-7) This was fulfilled three years later at 607 with King Zedekiah’s removal and the murder of Gedaliah.
[edit] [delete] Posted at 19:45 - 17/02/2008
abrother -
Jim
Grissom
You might be confused here. Jerusalem was attacked earlier than 607 BCE, moreover it was attacked in 607 BCE and that was the end of the end of David's royal line.
Thanks for the information Jim.
abrother
This message was last edited at 14:32 - 18/02/2008
[edit] [delete] Posted at 13:34 - 18/02/2008
grissom6471 -
My position is that people contend that JWs believe Jesus became king in 1914, and that date is from Jerusalem being destroyed in 607 BC. Then they say: 'Wait, historians say that Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 but in 587 so the Watchtower is wrong, and 1914 is wrong' and then they unravel everything.
Thus the the fight there is between 587 vs 607 as the date of Jerusalem's destruction and they have lost faith in JWs because the WTS supports 607.
That is where the focus is wrong. 1914 and the gentile times did not originate with the WTS. So what do the ones prior to the WTS say as to that date?
In the 1840's ministers such as Elliott and Bowen, (referenced in the Proclaimers book) believed that Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 and the gentile times began at the first invasion in 606 and then ended in 1914.
Nelson Barbour got his chronology from them. But he changed it to where there was 70 years from Zedekiah to the end of the captivity. Note his treates
THE WORLD'S CRISIS
AND SECOND ADVENT MESSENGER
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 1872
BIBLE CHRONOLOGY
N. H. BARBOUR
he said:begin quote:
"Nearly all writers on chronology leave out the eleven years reign of Zedekiah, and commence the "seventy years" with Jehoiakim's captivity. As there is so much authority against me here, I will try and show very clearly why the seventy years captivity cannot begin until after Zedekiah's reign. "And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and those nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass when seventy years are accomplished, I will punish the King of Babylon." Jer. 25:11-12. This is the prophecy on which that captivity, and all that is said in relation to it, is based. The whole land was to be a desolation. Again -- "Them that had escaped carried he away to Babylon, to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths; for as long as she lay desolate, she kept Sabbath, to fulfill threescore and ten years." 2 Chron. 36:21. here, again, we learn that the "seventy years" cover the time during which "the land" should be desolate. If, then, we can learn at what time the land became desolate, we shall know when the seventy years began."
"It is assumed by these writers that the land was desolate when Jehoiakim and the principal part of the people were carried away. This, however, is not the time when God understood that the land was made desolate, for he distinctly says that it was not until after Zedekiah's reign. "And Zedekiah, king of Judah, will I give into the hand of the king of Babylon's army, . . . . and I will make [in the future] the cities of Judah a desolation without an inhabitant." Jeremiah 34:21-22. So it appears that it was not until after Zedekiah's reign that the land was made desolate."
"Now read the story, as told by Jeremiah, and see what God understood by a desolate land, and at what time this desolation was accomplished. Read from the twenty-ninth to the forty-fourth chapters (Jeremiah 29-44) inclusive, and see what became of the remnant of the people after Zedekiah was carried to Babylon, which was in the beginning of his eleventh year."
"Those who were left in the land went down to Egypt, "even men and women and children; every person the captain of the guard had left." Jer. 43:6. And in the second verse of the next chapter (Jer. 44:2), the story is summed up with these words -- "Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day, they are a desolation without an inhabitant.""
"The reason so many chronological writers began this seventy years captivity with Jehoiakim, is found in the following passage -- "For thus saith the Lord, After seventy years be accomplished at Babylon, I will visit you, and perform my good word towards you, in causing you to return to this place." Jer. 29:10. And this is spoken to those who had been carried away prior to Zedekiah's reign. If this passage stood alone, we might infer that this "seventy years,' spoken of by Jeremiah, during which the land should be desolate, began with Jehoiakim's captivity. But the positive declaration that the land was not desolate until after Zedekiah's reign, makes such assumption groundless."
"God was here telling the children of the captivity "to build houses, and plant gardens," etc. for their stay in Babylon would be long, and not to let false prophets deceive them, He had already fixed on the time when they should return, viz., when seventy years desolation of their own land had been accomplished. But he does not tell them that the "seventy years" began with their captivity. That has been purely an assumption of chronological writers, and against a perfect avalanche of testimony to the contrary."
"If the "seventy years" had already begun, with Jehoiakim's captivity, and the land was desolate, why did God complain of the people under Zedekiah's reign; that the chief priests and people transgressed and polluted the house of God, and misused his prophets, until there was no remedy? "Therefore he brought upon them the Chaldeans, who slew their young m en, and carried all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, to Babylon; and burnt the house of God, and brake down the walls of Jerusalem, and carried all that had escaped the sword to Babylon, to fulfill the word of the Lord by Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths; for as long as she lay desolate, she kept Sabbaths, to fulfill threescore and ten years." 2 Chron. 36:13-21."
"I say, if Jeremiah's prophecy was already being fulfilled, and the land had been enjoying her Sabbaths ever since Jehoiakim's captivity, why did God say that Zedekiah and the remnant of the people were carried away, and the house burnt, and the wall broken down, to fulfill that prophecy? I sometimes think modesty is very becoming a writer who takes issue with all or nearly all the world, on a given subject; but when supported from the word of God by such arguments as these, my modesty does not trouble me."
"All I can say is, that the great mistake in rejecting the eleven years of Zedekiah's reign, as a part of chronology, must be accredited to the same cause which has kept the world in darkness on all other matters pertaining to the coming of the Lord."
-------------------------------------------
End of quote
Russell got his chronology from Nelson Barbour. But Barbour did not believe in the ransom, so why would we hold to his chronology. And the focus of their chronology back then was on the 6000 years of history not the gentile times, that was a side point.
Thus the best way to foil the apostates is to show them that they can argue all they want against the WTS. That's fine with me. It is not my job to defend the WTS and the writers there.
However it is my job to preach the kingdom that was established in 1914 which their chronology of Jerusalem being destroyed in 587 proves, as that was what was used prior to Barbour.
[edit] [delete] Posted at 19:29 - 18/02/2008
agrarian -
Grissom ...JW's believe that 607 is important because that is "when the crown was lifted off''....
it doesn't matter where or who first began to realize the significance of any given aspect of any given prophecy...
the fact that 607 CAN be and HAS been established as when that happened and the only group of people that have it right happens to also be DOING Jehovah's will...(preaching the kingdom message) ...well that should give any critic pause I would think
[edit] [delete] Posted at 19:52 - 18/02/2008
JimSpace -
Grissom provided valuable historical information on Barbour.
Agrarian's right though, "it doesn't matter where or who first began to realize the significance of any given aspect of any given prophecy." We make progress as new understanding comes to light. However the guiding principle has been to respect and hold to what the scriptures say: 70 years of desolation after the last king of Judah. Also:
Archaeology and deciphering cuneiform have enabled us to pinpoint 539 BCE as a pivotal date, with Cyrus releasing the Jews in his first regnal year, with them returning in Tishri 537. 70 years of desolation to fulfill the sabbaths locates its start in Tishri 607 after Gedaliah's assassination. (VAT 4956 is of dubious value in jumbling its lunar and planetary data, and Ptolemy's Babylonian chronology is twenty years truncated.)
This message was last edited at 10:02 - 19/02/2008
[edit] [delete] Posted at 09:51 - 19/02/2008
grissom6471 -
Except that it results in a bunch of fighting, that has gotten everyone nowhere as each side entrenches themselves more and more.
[edit] [delete] Posted at 08:36 - 20/02/2008
abrother -
grissom
Let's don't talk about fighting here? Because I will punch you in the eye and knock you out!!!
Jim
You are right, VAT 4956 and Ptolemy is totally off. Do you know what Apostates, VAT 4956, and Ptolemy have in common? They are totally off!! [edit] [delete] Posted at 14:16 - 20/02/2008
grissom6471 -
Debating with apostates is like watching last week's Apprentice when Piers Morgan and Omarosa were verbally fighting the whole show. With apostates playing the part of Omarosa. The result is just ugly.
Apostates are ugly.
[edit] [delete] Posted at 19:04 - 21/02/2008
abrother -
Grissom
Not only they are ugly, but retarts too.
[edit] [delete] Posted at 14:56 - 24/02/2008