University TV Lectures on Jewish History

Very good! Thanks for posting. I listened to the last lecture on messiahs and the apocalypse.

My impression, to over generalize is that the texts do represent a clearer focus on what the gospels present rather cryptically of the OT messianic issue.

Of much interest is the understanding that there were two messiahs, one from the line of David and one from the line of Joseph. That seems to be right up front and clear. What Schiffman doesn't realize is that while indeed there are two messiahs from two different tribes, the Christian tradition of the first and second coming addresses this. That is, the messiah is born in two different ages and then combined into one messiah. The first is the Davidic, the second from the line of Joseph.

Also interesting is the concept of the burying of the bones of the common meal connected to the messiah so the dogs would not get to them, since the dogs were said to defile the sacrifice. This buys into the "death" of the messiah also mentioned. But that is very much related to the death of the messiah or defilement of the messiah in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus where the messiah is seen with sores that are licked by dogs, thus the dogs defile Lazarus. What that relates to is the weakness of he messiah for dogs that then defile him and lead to his death. That is, a "dog" in the Bible refers to men who use male prostitutes in ancient times. They got the label as "dogs" because of the sexual position of the anal intercourse resembling how dogs mate. To skip to the basics, what kills the messiah at the second coming is his love for these dogs, bi-sexual men. Dogs are associated with male prostitutes and since Lazarus accommodates these dogs, the messiah is understood to at one point be a male prostitute. This of course, means his spiritual death.

So it is interesting they interpreted from the scriptures or understand from some understanding that the messiah would arrive at end times and be killed/defiled by dogs, that is be overcome by homosexuality, and at some point later be saved from these dogs and become holy again. This is merely the prodigal son, once dead, returning to God's temple at the last moment and then becoming the messiah.

Now as far as the two messiahs becoming one. The first one is born in the tribe of David with a very specific lineage. The second one is like Melchizedek without specific lineage but per the Bible would be connected generally to the tribe of Joseph, whose children were half Egyptian. How this works out at end-times is that this prodigal son messiah, who becomes defiled by dogs and his homosexuality and thus undergoes a death before he repents, is also born through the tribe of Joseph. After he returns to God's house, that individual is embodied by the heavenly messiah, the one that was once a man on the earth at the first coming. So there are TWO MESSIAHS, the second one dying, a connection with dogs, and also a connection with the tribe of Joseph.

Technically how this messiah is through the line of Joseph, interestingly, also is addressed by Schiffman about those who believed there would be a resurrection during end-times. Per the gospel, there were always two groups. One group who would die and need to be resurrected at the end-times when the second messiah arrive. Another group, though, would never die, but would live throughout the 1900 years to the second coming. In this way, the 12 tribes of Israel to fulfill the prophecy of the 144,000 could take place. That's because 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes must make up the spiritual temple, not just 144,000 natural Jews. There is no way to prove lineage after the temple was destroyed in 70-73 CE. The only way to assure this fulfillement, therefore, was for some from the 1st century who could prove their lineage, to be chosen to survive through the 1900 years to the end-times. Then at some point they would marry into the modern population, producing the descendants from the 12 tribes. In 150 years a single indiidual could potentially have over a million descendants. Most people can trace their ancestry back 150 years. Even black American slaves can trace their ancestry back that far to say 1850, whereas before that many slaves were just listed by number and age with no names, etc.

At any rate, this messiah who becomes a male prostitute for a while before returning to become the messiah, would have lineage via the modern ancestry of the tribe of Joseph. So in that sense the scepter of rulership comes from both the house of Judah/David and of Joseph, but they are combined into one at the second coming. The first messiah, who got resurrected back up into heaven to become Michael the Archangel again, cannot use his perfect body given in sacrifice, so to reenter humanity as a man again, one of his followers is chosen for him to inhabit their body and identity. This second messiah is born and goes through 40 years of testing, part of which he ends up dying spiritually because of his homosexuality but he recovers in time to become holy and is accepted back into God's house. This is the point where high-priest Joshua is seen with filthy garments being given the robes of the state, that parallels the return of the prodigal son from his life of immorality but is forgiven those sins and granted the messiahship.

The "sons of light" vs "the sons of darkness" likewise, simply represent the faithful and unfaithful that battle each other. Christ and his angels versus Satan and his, and the struggle between the faithful anointed and the unfaithful. The true vine and the "grapes of wrath" as it were that would take place.

So all this this, reflected at Qumran is a glimpse of the exegetical understanding of the messiah and end times, which is quite consistent with scripture. So generally it appears they reflected the fundamental beliefs that the gospels later made more specific relating to the first-coming Christ.

I will note, though, that when Christ established the Christian Covenant, it did not totally erase the Covenant with Judaism, which was separate. The two, like two messiahs are combined into one in the spiritual temple. So in that sense, there are two messiahs as well, one coming out of Judaism the 1st time and one coming out of Christianity the second. But the final messiah who heads the spiritual house becomes the messiah for both branches of God's people, with the total number being 1,440,000, 10% being the root of natural Jews, 12,000 from each tribe.

Quite amazing. If you understand the gospels you can see reflected all the Qumran fundamental beliefs, especially advanced concepts and details of the second-coming messiah.

Finally, as a last point, Schiffman mentioned some confusion over the "pierced" messiah and suggests a misreading. But the Bible also speaks of those who "pierced him" would also see him. The messiah will affect the entire world, true, eventually, but as an individual this would be fulfilled in a very personal and small way in relation to the messiah. Interesting that detail was understood way back then. That is, that the leaders, the official sect leadership would take part in piercing the messiah at some point, but later those who pierced him would become his followers. I guess that was an interesting detail. What it means is, since the messiah comes through God's temple organization, Jehovah's witnesses, that the elders in the congregation where the messiah is would disfellowship him for unjust cause, in that way piercing him. I'll spare the details but that's what it means. It means that some on the original disfellowshipping committee would learn who the messiah is, or learn that that person was the messiah and repent and convert. Thus those who "pierced him" would see him.

But anybody who is a witness knows the problem with these overzealous elders who lay in wait until someone commits a sin so they can disfellowship them. The entire policy of disfellowshipping is flawed. So basically if someone commits a sin and they ask for forgiveness, the congregation is supposed to forgive them. Not up to 7 times but 77 times! It doesn't matter what they did or how often. If they are sorry, they are to be forgiven, without question. That's how Jehovah works. But often the elders will try to make judgment calls here and there and disfellowship if they have "grounds", without regard to the forgiveness rule. So in that way the error is made, where they "pierce" or harm those who are repentant by disfellowshpping them, which is basically what happend. The "messiah" was disfellowshipped due to an "error" in judgment and rule not followed by the elders.

But I also liked the part where the messiah eventually conquers and destroys some of the leadership. I suppose that means on a spiritual sense, the truth the messiah has will expose and destroy the false teachings of the "sons of darkness".

Finally, finally, finally... someone asked where the Qumran sect would be now. If they were astute at finding the messiah, they would be in an underground cult and enjoying the presence of their messiah! The messiah appears to the underground cultic followers at the second coming at first, which is part of his arriving "in the clouds" as a thief, etc.

I think the most important point Schiffman makes, though, is that indeed, the pre-Christian Jews were definitely looking for a physical messiah to arrive at end times, and they believed in the apocalyse, where the wicked would all be killed off and only the righteous left remaining. It's interesting that Schiffman actually gave us a percentage of about 6.7% being "bad" and the rest of the world being good. Interesting. Maybe that is only the criminal element, but more is required than not being a criminal. The actual percentage is likely more as it was in heaven, 2:1, where one third reject the messiah/christ. One doesn't have to be a terrorist or violent to decide they don't like the messiah. If they don't, though, they bow out when their time is up. So it's more like one-third that will suffer the ultimate apocalyptic scenario of destruction in the "lake of fire" with two-thirds saved to live into eternity.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR POSTING THIS! It is all too clear if the messiah comes through two different Jewish lineages that he must appear in the flesh twice. JWs believe Jesus was resurrected as a spirit and that's it, so how does he enter through the line of Joseph? It doesn't work. He must appear in the flesh again, the second time the messiah taking up the identity of a descendant of Joseph, whose children were half-Egyptian, so I suppose the messiah would resemble someone Egyptian, no?

OH! One more thing. Schiffman also touched on the fact that there would be a time when the Jews would no longer be under gentile rule! This was also another big concept for the Jews, that one day they would be independent of gentile rule! This occurred in 1947! This is connected as well with the timing of the messiah since the Jewish state is set up before the messiah arrives!! So it's ALL there in the Qumran scrolls, what the gospels are simply specific about in relation to the 1st coming and identifying Jesus as the messiah the Jews were expecting to arrive.

QUITE AMAZING!!!

JC