Question from Newbie Chris Cross, JW accounting & money trail

by horrible life 14 Replies latest watchtower scandals

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  horrible life

  This was on another thread. Since that thread died a slow death, I thought this question from this Newbie, needed to be answered. I have an extra topic to give away.

  ChrisCross

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/153110/2807868/post.ashx#2807868

  I'm new to the forums. I have been arguing/debating with a JW at work now for about 6 years. Well, the latest topic of discussion was that of which this thread is about. My JW friend came to me and said, "the problem with all religions in the world is the collection of money. When people are involved, greed is usually involved and that is when you see church leaders living lavishly with 20 cars and a mansion." Of course, my repsonse was, "I take it by all religions you are excluding the Jehovah Witnesses?" I proceeded to ask him how many witnesses there are in the world and then how many currently reside in the US? He tells me about one million JW's live in the US and I proceeded to tell him that it is foolhardy to think that out of 1 million people in a religion that does accept "donations" that there is no foul-play involved whatsover. So he proceeds to tell me that the JW organization has a system of checks and balances from each kingdom hall all the way up to the top (the money trail) and that no foul play can be found. He continues to tell me that any average JW can confirm this. Actually, I assume this implicitly from the conversation that he has no reason to have any suspicion of foul play. Since of course I am the one who decided to take on the task of confirming this, I found this thread and find it very compelling but lacking any credible evidence. Is there anyway to obtain any bookeeping copies of JW accounting? I'm pretty sure this is a resounding no. I am left to constructing an argument based on, at the very least, compelling evidence which I'm sure will fall to deaf ears once I explain my findings to my JW friend.

  So the questions I have are 1) has there been any reported incideneces of ANY jehovahs witnesses living off of donated funds for which there is evidence. I assume that any JW working in a facility does not have any other job and that of which is volunteer help for the Watchtower. So it seem to me if someone was found driving an extravagant car, eating at fancy restaurants, etc, can be used as evidence, 2) What are some hard figures on how much it costs to support a door to door ministry as opposed to having a dedictated TV station or airing over the internet or even mail correspondance? The real point I'm after here is the assertion that is made in the Jehovah's (Hidden) Message Revealed. Is it really cheaper to do the afforementioned types of ministry over door to door? 3) Has anybody done similar research for which they can provide reference material for? I would be really interested in this.
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  truthseeker

  I don't have the links, but maybe someone can post the article on the assembly hall deficits...
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  blondie

  Locally, it depends on how the PO monitors the accounts servant. They are supposed to have the local books audited

  ***

  km12/07p.7Announcements***

  Someone designated by the presiding overseer should audit the congregation’s accounts for the months of September, October, and November. The same person should not be used for consecutive audits. When the audit is complete, an announcement should be made to the congregation after the next accounts report is read.—See InstructionsforCongregationAccounting (S-27).

  When the PO is lax is this or the auditor is not qualified, monies have been embezzled by the accounts servant.

  The WTS does keep track of the publications that are sent to a congregation and compare the donations to the "worldwide work" and will write to the congregation if the donations don't equal their assessed value.

  The WTS has warned congregations not to use monies for the "worldwide work" to use for paying utility bills and mortgage payments.

  At the upper level, the WTS is very careful not to let people dip into the money. If you see Bethelites with expensive possessions, it is more likely that a family member, congregation member has "donated" it to them. Some Bethelites have inherited money of some value when their parents die (their parent's estate).

  Bethelites are always watching each other carefully, comparing possessions and money beyond the Bethel allowance.

  If you think about how much the WTS donates to individuals and local congregations (nothing), you can bet they watch the money very carefully. The only exception is if a favored member loses or waste money on a WTS business project through stupidity or arrogance. I knew of one that lost $400,000 on a project at the WT Farm.
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  willdabeerman

  I wish I had material proof but when I was Assistant accounts servant at my old congregation in VA, we had a subpoena for seizure of financial records for our congregation from the STATES attorney general office. I never found out what all the hubbub was about but the elders had us hand them over one Saturday morning at 0530. Best I could tell this was done at this hour to keep it all on the down low.
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  Pahpa

  I don't think there is the blatant abuse of money in the Watchtower Society that we see in many other religious organizations....except for those projects promoted by the Society. But, as has been pointed out before in this forum, one does not have to have a lot of money to live like a wealthy person. It is quite relative. For example, the leaders in the Watchtower organization have a very comfortable life. Housing, food and clothing are provided. Some in the USA have nice apartments overlooking the sky line of Manhattan. They have access to the Society's automobiles. They get regular perks to travel throughout the world on speaking assignments paid by the Society. Generous money gifts are often donated to them by private individuals. The best accomodations and food are provided them wherever they go. And they get the veneration of the rank and file.
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  OnTheWayOut

  On the local level, you will find that JW's are on the up and up and basically honest
  about their finances. They pay for the building, they reveal where their money goes.
  Abuse of funds comes from Brooklyn.

  The cost per publisher for the C.O.'s insurance, the cost per publisher for using the
  Assembly Hall- inflated numbers that engulf other expenses.

  In many cases, it would be cheaper for the circuit to rent private facilities than to use
  the WT's Assembly Hall, but the money would go outside of the corporation. I expect
  in the future that shrinking numbers will bring more District Conventions to the Assembly
  Hall. All Circuit Assemblies and District Conventions report a "deficit" of funds before
  the gathering is over, so that more money will come out of the pockets of the members
  to cover the deficit. If there is too much money in the coffers at the end, they donate a
  huge amount of it to the WTS, and then they can say there is another deficit at the next
  assembly. Assemblies and Conventions are huge cash-cows for WTS. If they were
  losing money, they would cut back.

  WTS doesn't reveal the way they spend the money, just a little footnote at the bottom of
  their yearly report.

  When a C.O. sees that funds are available in a Kingdom Hall account, he suggests
  remodeling the hall, or splitting the congregation and purchasing new property. Ya see, that
  Kingdom Hall account doesn't belong to WTS, but they can make them spend it. The
  guys on the Building committee (quick builds and remodels) are all "in tight" with the WTS
  and they charge money for their services. They supply expertise and equipment at a profit while
  the "volunteers" do most of the work for free. Also, the typical favors go around Brooklyn with
  lawyer services, real estate brokers, and suppliers. Many are family and friends of the leaders.
  Good luck proving that this is wrong to a JW, though.
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  SB

  well, this isn't really a scandal thought, but it's food for thought for your JW friend: the bibe says not to charge your brother interest on a loan. (where that is found, i can't remember, and i don't have my handy dandy reference edition of the new world translation with me at the moment. i'm sure your friend can find this scripture - then probably argue that this reasoning is "out of contex". ha ha - they are good at that.) anyhow: the watchtower bible and tract society and subsequent corporations that make up this religion, collect donations from congregations. then say, that same congregation wants to build a kingdom hall. the "society" (watchtower organization, in case your not familiar with the "lingo"), will LOAN money to that same congregation that has been sending donations to them for years. they will then allow that congregation to pay them back in monthly payments WITH INTEREST. so, collect money from a group of people, then turn around and loan money to them with interest. it's brilliant really. not really a scandal, because it's legal. but i never understood how this was truly christian, even when i was putting my dollars in the donation boxes. SB
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  bobld

  The WBTS always say religions pass the collection plates,so what they(wtbts)pass the resolution plates.If the pastors drives a fancy car so what.It's the money people gave,they have the option of not giving any money.However,the R&F don't have an option if a resolution is passed.Talk of wbts scams,what about the district conventions and their hotel scam.The circuit assemblies in their K.H. and what they charge the members.The reason they build assembly halls so they would not have to rent facilities at a high cost.In some places the local elders can rent so called worldly facilities at a cheaper rate than that of a k.h.What about their false claim of Re-organization.Christian witnesses of Jehovah's Witnesess.Protection from law suits that is what it is.Vow of proverty,all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and they know how to hide it.And that is that.
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  Tefferin Laux

  well, in doing other research I found it interesting that several members of the Governing Body were visiting overseas and decided to stay in a four star hotel rather than at the homes of JW's. Also several ex-Bethelites have talked about the huge amount of waste created by purchasing machinery without knowing how to use it, purchasing machinery that needs to be updated, etc. One mentions a $2 million art machine that NO ONE actually knew how to use. Niiiiiiice. Remember too that Bethel is in one of the most expensive real estate markets in the world, and they make beaucoup money from sales - I think Rick Ross pointed out the last sale should be worth like $110 million or something.

  So basically, if people at the top aren't living like kings, it's because they're too dumb or fake pious to really work it out. Sounds like most of the JW money is just squandered on poor business decisions which is permitted because they are tax exempt and don't actually have to figure out how to make the ledgers balance.

  There's some other good stuff online showing that the vast majority of money the WTS gets is NOT in fact from contributions but from their publishing empire which encourages both members and novitiates to pay for the literature (twice).
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  Pistoff

  "The guys on the Building committee (quick builds and remodels) are all "in tight" with the WTS
  and they charge money for their services."
  
  Is this true?
  
  The men on the RBC get paid??