Badboy...potty mouths will not be tolerated here at JWD...so leave my speleotherm alone ok?...................oompa
WOULD NOAH'S FLOOD HAVE AFFECTED SPELEOTHERMS?
by badboy 25 Replies latest jw friends
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jaguarbass
Don't ya just love it when ordinary people question the well researched findings made by scientists who have studied complex natural processes for decades, the same science that has given them the computer that they are typing on, just because some religious nitwits want to believe that some ancient tribal deity did things exactly like their old book says.
I dont think its the same science that gave us the computer as the science that tells us the earth is millions of years old any more than I think the catholic church and the church of scientoligist are the same religion or believe in the same god.Western music is not the same music as eastern music.
Accupuncture and wholistic medicine is not the same medicine as western medicine.
Science is good. But until its capable of being tested and duplicated it is not science it is theory.
computer science is real. The science of evolution and dating the earth to be millions of years old is like quantum physics. Theoretical. And not theoretical as in the theory of gravity, Its theoretical as in the theory, if pigs could fly.
I read things by noted scientist and practitioner in their fields and for the most part I feel the pro creation scientist make better arguments.
I read pro and con creation and evolution God and atheist. Last month I read the Practical atheist.
I just finished a book by Dr. Gills one of Americas top doctors, He is a famous eye doctor. He says based on his research and understanding and operating on eyes that there is no way man was not created. He say man was designed. There is no macro evolution, only micro evolution.
http://www.stlukeseye.com/Gills.asp
I dont believe what he says because he works in the field and is considered one of the worlds best doctors. I believe him because I agree with his logic.
But I'm talking about eyes and evolution now and the subject is an old earth and dating methods.
Since I dont believe in the bible I will concede the earth may be old. But carbon dating and the various dating methods have been shown to be unreliable.
And just like I cried foul to the wactower I'll cry foul whenever I see one.
I do agree with your point about the bible either you believe it or you dont. You can not take it litterally. It is totaly open to interpretation so that makes it tottally unreliable. You can also test the things the bible says and find they are not true in real time. If you find one untruth how can you trust anything else it says. And there is more than one untruth in the bible.
I have no fear in an old earth or in evolution. I just dont see evolution as the better argument. Let me clarify Macro evolution. Because micro evolution or adaptation is measurable. It semantics.
I think there are other dimensions and someone in that dimension designed us. They left their calling card in the design. Just like if we were to recieve radio transmissions from outer space we would likely conclude there was life. Creation is the transmission from the other dimension. Creation and design is the calling card. I dont know what to do with that calling card. But thats the evidence.
And there are a lot of university educated scientific professionals that agree with me.
I am not ignorant either. While I dont have a college degree I have taken many college classes including anantomy and physiology.
Systems in the body are like mouse traps. They wouldnt work with out all the parts. A mouse trap has 5 parts, if you remove any one of those parts you do not have a mouse trap. The body is the same way. If you removed various parts the systems would not work The body would not function. When Darwin came up with the theory of evolution, he had no idea how complex the human cell is. He thought cells were goo.
If your going to ask for specifics the eye is one. The eye is not going to work until you have all of the components. An eye is not going to sit around waiting for all the componets to evolve to be an eye.
And so it goes with the whole body.
Dont take my word you can read if from one of the top eye doctors in the country in Dr. Gills book. He is a scientist and he's working in the field and his nationally recognized. To me thats better than a phd teaching theory in a college.
I dont look for anybody to believe what I say, I'm not trying to convert anybody to anything. I guess I just enjoy commenting on things as I see them which is subject to the availability of data and how that data corresponds with the reality of the world I see. As far as I can be honest with myself, I have no vested interest. I dont think I see design so I can praise a designer. I just see design.
I do believe that the religious use design as a hook into their belief system.
Just like they use sex as a taboo and a way to use guilt to shame people into church for redemtion.
I theoroize thats why so many swallow evolution so they dont have to swallow religion.
But like Dylan said "We all have to serve somebody".
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edmond dantes
I go with science every time until it's proved otherwise; If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and looks like a duck you can bet it's a duck.No matter what you do or where you go in life you have to go with the most educated and wisest opinion because if you don't you are accepting amateurism.
For an example if you look back to the smallpox epedemics of several hundred years ago, if somebody had said at that time you need a very small dose of it to become immune you most probably would not have believed it.It took intelligent research to come up with immunization and become accepted.I wonder how many crazy cures were going around way back when.
That is precisely what is wrong with the JWs argument when they try to persuade people not to go for higher education and I say if you don't dig deep enough you want learn the truth.
In reply to the original question the answer is no because they woud not be here now. What the heck are speleotherms ?
See you later I'm off to find a caving club. I'm going underground for awhile.
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Witness 007
The whole flood is a damn LIE!! It never happened...My book of bible stories lied to me I hate that yellow book now!
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PrimateDave
From the web page posted about the good Dr. Gill:
Dr. Gills has also written more than 120 medical reference journal articles, eight books and three brochures dealing with his personal commitment to Christian principles and physical fitness.
LOL! [sarcasm]No conflicts of interest there![/sarcasm]
Interestingly enough, the primate eye, in other words the eye that human beings, Chimpanzees, and other apes share, is not the pinnacle of "creation" as many Creationists believe. The most evolved visual system on the planet belongs to the Mantis shrimp which followed a much different evolutionary path than did humans.
Dave
P.S. Yes, a Noachian flood would have affected speleotherms present anywhere on the planet at its supposed time of occurrence. There is no evidence that any such global disaster occurred, however. -
IP_SEC
goose laying golden eggs=fairytale
cinderella=fairytale
global flood=fairytale
zeus=fairytale
sampson=fairytale
heracles-=fairytale
jack & the beanstalk=true stor... oops fairytale
jesus son of god=fairytale
perseus son of god=fairytale -
jaguarbass
Dr. Gills has also written more than 120 medical reference journal articles, eight books and three brochures dealing with his personal commitment to Christian principles and physical fitness.
LOL! [sarcasm]No conflicts of interest there![/sarcasm]
In case you havent noticed what time it is.People who believe in God and Christ promote creation science.
People who believe in no God promote evolution.
Those are the players.
The people that sell evolution are not going to print creationist arguments and vice versa.
Its clear to me both sides have scientist in their ranks.
Your making a straw man by attacking his interest not his arguments. Thats a slippery road to go down. Thats the wactower road.
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gaiagirl
"I think there are other dimensions and someone in that dimension designed us." WOW!! Talk about believing in unproveable stuff, that is an absolutely perfect example. My question would be "What evidence do you base such a belief upon"? Just a couple of notes to add, namely "theory" as used by scientists means "this is what happend, based on the evidence we have observed" The word you really want to use to describe unproven things is "hypothesis", which is NOT a synonym for "theory". Also, concerning people living "only in the region of Mesopotamia", when exactly was that? Australia has been inhabited for over 40,000 years, with many lines of evidence proving this.
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PrimateDave
I don't know Dr. Gills. He's probably a nice guy and a great doctor. I imagine that when he was a little boy, his Christian parents told him about God, Jesus, and Creation. I imagine that he believed them and apparently still does. He is a successful man who very likely has never had to challenge his first held beliefs. I imagine that his world view is shaped by them and ordered in his mind to fit them. That is quite different from simply looking at the world and asking "why?"
Having been raised a Witness and spending 38 years of my life in the Org., I don't accept what any man says at face value anymore. My parents told me about Jehovah, Jesus, and Creation. As a young child I loved astronomy. I loved science class. In my teens I was very keen on the WTS big blue "Creation" book. I did well in Chemistry and Physics. I had a few blind spots, however, like History and Evolution. I refused to accept them, as far as they deviated from my first held beliefs of 6000 years of human existence. I ordered my world view around what my family told me was true.
Well, you know what? Many of my first held beliefs were a bunch of shit, and I've learned to accept that. For me, the Theory of Evolution and other theories about the age of the Earth and the origin of life aren't a religion. They are simply the best explanations that I have found up to this time that make any sense to me. I expect no eternal reward for believing in them, and they make no demands upon me for "sacred service".
So, whenever I hear or read of an opinion by someone who wears the big badge of "Christian" on their lapel, I can't help but assume they are carrying the same psychological baggage of first held beliefs that I once did and my parents and other family members still do.
Dave -
jaguarbass
Your preaching to the choir on your understanding of the word theory. Tell that to those that put forth the hypothesis that macroevolution is scientific fact. My hypothesis regarding being designed by someone from another dimension has just as much evidence as your evolutionary hypothesis, zero. There are no transitional forms in the fossil records all life appears in his present form and state and either still exist or has gone extinct. there is/ are no missing links. Evolution says that life just sprang up in huge leaps and bounds.Thats how they jibe their theory with the evidence of the fossils. To me thats not much different than being created. I dont see modern secular science trying to prove or disprove the assuption that we evolved. They take it for granted based on Darwins faulty work. The people that I see trying to figure out how we got here are the creation scientist and they repeatedly show that we didnt macro evolve. The majority of the people that are called scietist that put forth the hypothesis of evolution are Phds. To maintain their tenure they must publish or perish. They are not going to go against the mantra of the hand that feeds them, that mantra is we evolved according to Darwin. Those who take the dissenting view publish to the christians thats their market.