The apostacy started w paul ;)
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Is Paul constantly disagreeing with Christ?
by yknot 14 Replies latest jw friends
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Satanus
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JosephMalik
But compare Galatians with the infamous passage in 1Timothy 2:11-15 where "Paul" insists that "a woman learn in silence with full submission." In fact, Paul does not even permit a woman to speak.
Rapunzel,
No Paul did not do anything like this. What he was doing here in a long string of text was showing Timothy precisely what to look out for so that Timothy would not appoint such men as Overseers. He did something like this in many of his letters to expose such men, often correcting them on the spot. Also he would quote them so the personal pronoun I does not always mean Paul. Such a false saying would be corrected by not giving such men any authority and in this case he said to Timothy: 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. And then he went on to show what he was really looking for in men of Faith.
Joseph
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WTWizard
Here are some of the problems:
First, the Gospels were written many years after the fact. There is no way the writers could have remembered the details after 20 years or more, which explains why some of Christ's teachings were distorted. They might have also had some influence from Platonic philosophy.
Second, Paul mistook Christ's teachings. The Bible was written by bicameral people and the struggle to transition to the conscious state that we take for granted today (also explaining why miracles ceased). That worked for the apostles, since they were among the peasants. Jesus' real goal was to teach the peasants to think on their own, and that is why his teachings were written in parables. Paul, who was educated, could think on his own already. However, he mistakenly took the parables literally and wrote accordingly. This gives the illusion of a bunch of rules, which the early Catholic church wasted no time exploiting for themselves.
Anyone that reads the Gospels with the mindset that Christ is trying to teach people to think on their own will see this. That is difficult, since most people these days already think consciously (except for the most primitive tribes). And it's even more difficult since most mainstream religions teach the Bible literally, just like Paul did. Result: A bunch of rules and guilt.
Note the majority of Jesus' lambastings. He never lambasted people that were fornicators, adulterers, or greedy people. In fact, he didn't insist that they quit such practices without thinking. What he did bash, and quite forcibly, were those in charge of keeping people in servitude. Those that would make a bunch of rules were quite forcibly lambasted. The government was reprehensible, since they tried to exploit people for the sake of a few leaders. Religious leaders were even worse, since they tried to take the Law and add unnecessary rules, binding the people and stopping them from thinking on their own. This is the system that generated all those peasants and stopped them from learning to think consciously, and Jesus did not tolerate that.
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Rapunzel
J. Malik: If you get the chance, you might consider reading 1 Corinthians 14: 26-40. While doing so, you should "bracket" verses 34 and 35 because they obviously do not belong there. Narratively speaking, these two verses are anomalous and intrusive; they do not fit at all into the surrounding context. Verses 34 and 35 read: "...let the women keep silent. For it is not permitted for them to speak, but to be in subjection, just as the law says." You should consider the theme of verses 26-33, and the theme of verses 36-40. If you do so, you will see that Paul is dealing with the issue of prophecy in the Church. He is giving instructions to Christian prophets concerning their behavior during Christian services of worship.
Moreover, as an experiment, try reading starting at verse 26 and read up to verse 33. Then skip over verses 34 and 35, and go directly to verse 36-40. You will see how the passage reads seamlessly if verses 34 and 35 are removed. The narrative is much smoother and more coherent. The discussion of women in verses 34 and35 appears intrusive and awkward. Some scholars believe that verses 34 and 35 are extraneous; they were added as a kind of marginal note by a scribe, possibly under the influence of 1 Timothy 2. In addition to the narrative evidence that I have already mentioned, there is also manuscript evidence supporting this idea. In three Greek manuscripts and in a couple of Latin manuscripts, verses 34 and 35 do not appear after verse 33; they appear after verse 40.
Finally, Paul's admonishment to women to keep silent contradicts what he says in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 where Paul gives instructions to women speaking in the church. It is impossible to reconcile 1 Corinthians 11: 2-16, where Paul allows women to speak with veiled heads, and 1 Cor. 14: 34-35, where he tells women to keep silent. Verses 34 and 35 are a scribal alteration. As I mentioned in my previous post, there were many disputes and arguments in the second-century church. It was at this time that ideological and creedal orthodoxy began to be imposed. One of the most contentious of the raging debates was precisely the role of women in the Church. The scribes who were recording the scriptures could not help but get immersed in these debates and polemics.
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JosephMalik
J. Malik: If you get the chance, you might consider reading 1 Corinthians 14: 26-40. While doing so, you should "bracket" verses 34 and 35 because they obviously do not belong there. Narratively speaking, these two verses are anomalous and intrusive; they do not fit at all into the surrounding context. Verses 34 and 35 read: "...let the women keep silent. For it is not permitted for them to speak, but to be in subjection, just as the law says." You should consider the theme of verses 26-33, and the theme of verses 36-40. If you do so, you will see that Paul is dealing with the issue of prophecy in the Church. He is giving instructions to Christian prophets concerning their behavior during Christian services of worship.
Rapunzel.
Of course they belong there. Why is that? Because in saying this Paul lets them know precisely where they are wrong. How? By simply saying of such text: 36 What? And he gives them a tongue lashing for doing this very thing by saying; came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. I spent a lot of time on this long ago and realize that very few understand Paul and his methods including most scholars. I also understand why Paul is put down so much. He steps on every one's toes even many in our modern times. Like it or not the things that Paul wrote ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. And of all places the Corinthians had a lot of doctrine to correct which is what Paul does as he goes through their letter to him line by line and corrects massive amounts of their teachings in this very letter even quoting from it at times. This is not a matter of contradictions as you believe but improper interpretation which twists his comments and makes them seem more in line with what the Corinthians taught instead of the commandmenets of the Lord that he was teaching.
Joseph