A couple questions for atheists on Suffering

by little_Socrates 102 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Ruby456

  viv, another point in reply to your question

  A simple yes or no, please. Is there value is child rape?
  

  this is market talk and for the traffickers the reply would be yes.

  Suffering is not a bankable commodity. But yes i guess if an individual has suffered at the hands of the watchtower organisation then a part of releasing oneself would be to ask this sort of question - suffering seen as commodity and the intuitive response - I am not a commodity, how dare the wts treat me as such. I did go through a process like this but then you are confronted with the question of value (but not as commodified value) to ask the question I put to you at the beginning of my previous post.

  viv - any rape is a terrible crime - child rape is the worst form of exploitation. On the other hand a child who has been raped is not worthless and used up although they may feel that way are they?
  
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  Viviane

  viv - any rape is a terrible crime - child rape is the worst form of exploitation. On the other hand a child who has been raped is not worthless and used up although they may feel that way are they?

  You said there is value in suffering. I am asking you if there is value in child rape. Why are you refusing to answer whether or not rape, a form or sufering, has value?

  I am saying the opposite which to never suffer exploitation quietly.

  That's not the opposite because you've not answered the question yet.

  You said suffering has value. Does child rape, which if suffering, have value? If so, does more suffering mean more value?

  You're going out of your way to answer questions no one is asking. Why can't you answer the questions you are asked?
• 

  LisaRose

  You are coming with a preconceived notion that suffering is evil. I don't accept that. I want you to prove it.

  I don't believe suffering is evil. What I do believe is that if God existed and was omnipotent, he has knowingly allowed human beings, supposedly his creation, continue to rape, torture, enslave and kill each other for thousands of years. I don't know if that makes him evil, but it doesn't make him someone I would worship. Since I see no evidence that he exists, it doesn't much matter

  If you had children, would you stand idly by while one of them tortured the other? Would you say that the suffering of that one was good because it made him stronger or served your purposes in some way? Would it be OK if you then took the injured child to the doctor? No, you would be considered a monster and rightly so. The ends in this case do not justify the means, nothing would alter the fact that you knowingly allowed that suffering to continue when you could have stopped it. Why would a heavenly father get a pass for the same thing?
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  GrreatTeacher

  LisaRose, you hit the nail on the head. Just because a person may have survived suffering and then have gained some strength from the situation doesn't then make that suffering good or desireable or even purposeful.

  I think some here are arguing that a silver lining in a cloud is a good thing while I think the existence of the cloud in the first place is the problem if you believe in a benevolent, omnicient god.
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  Ruby456

  viv, little-socrates is asking atheists this question and I am replying as an athiest. So in direct reply to your question

  You said there is value in suffering. I am asking you if there is value in child rape. Why are you refusing to answer whether or not rape, a form or sufering, has value?
  

  let me spell it out to you even more clearly

  an athiest rather than saying that God is responsible would ask instead who is the suffering of child rape valuable to

  1. it is valuable to the sellers/traffickers

  2. the suffering of child rape is valuable to the buyer the one gets his/her pleasure from the rape itself.

  3. the victim/survivor who chooses to go on living with the suffering instead of killing themselves extracts value for themselves and for others from the suffering.

  4. victims often have a very strong sense of justice as a direct result of their rape.

  your next question asks

  does more suffering mean more value?
  

  Nietzsche said what does not kill you makes you stronger and in this vein see three and four above and then see one and two as well - in that those in one and two will continue to extract and enjoy more and more value insatiably if they are not stopped. Hope this does not come across as evading the question. As an atheist I do not focus on Gods instrumentality in perpetrating suffering but on the ones who cause suffering because it is lucrative and pleasurable for them rather than hiding it by pinning it solely to religious beliefs. This does not make me bitter or angry and depressed as I can see that victims/survivors are at last being listened to. I love their courage and faith in life and dare even to say that I revel in them - the victims/survivors, that is, for the reason that they have chosen to go on living even if some could only manage a short life.
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  Viviane

  viv, little-socrates is asking atheists this question and I am replying as an athiest

  So you think there is value in children getting raped. That's disgusting. I can see clearly now why you are trying very hard to not admit such an immoral and dehumanizing idea. It's utterly repellent to anyone who is not a horrible example of a human.
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  Ruby456

  viv, I see that you trying hard to occupy the moral high ground. Well good luck with that. Somehow I don't think

  little_socrates wanted the conversation to go solely in that direction as I don't think he was asking these questions of atheists solely to see how much moral indignation we can express and I can see that atheists have expressed more than thiests. So please come back to your thread and tell us what you think as I think it is a good question which I realise now asks if atheists see suffering in moral terms of good and evil or if they see it as something that will always exist or in other words as

  1. suffering as part of the world in which we live. The human condition for example

  2. suffering as a form of man-made exploitation which can be remedied

  3. suffering as something that invokes fighting for change if it does not break you

  My own way is to seek social and political embedding and my thoughts are on the elections in the UK and what each party leader is saying what they will do to alleviate suffering
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  Viviane

  viv, I see that you trying hard to occupy the moral high ground. Well good luck with that.

  Luck isn't needed as I'm not trying to occupy anything. You see value in child rape. That's disgusting and horrible.
• 

  Ruby456

  viv, atheists who only want to see suffering in moral terms have had their say. Suffering does not always require moralizing. Why can't we see suffering in terms of good and and bad. Child rape is very bad and victims need to be heard. Perpetrators need to be brought to justice. I have said this all along. But shifting the terms of this discussion does not mean that I think child rape is good or even neutral but it means that we can ask if anything of value can even come out of something so horrendous. many victims can say yes. They value being alive and can often find enjoyment in life and can meet challenges many others cannot - one being working hard to get get abuse stopped.

  Now getting back to whether or not suffering has value and the question of wanting to live in a world free of suffering -

  it is not easy to come out firmly on one side or the other as this thread has shown

  but I think we can focus on suffering as having value if we shift from a position of good and evil (which to me are moral positions) to a position of good or bad (ethics). What is bad isn't always detrimental. this is the sense I am getting from this thread and there are a number of other reasons not mentioned yet that would make me think that all suffering is not bad. It would be interesting to see if you agree with some of the reasons below

  parents who suffer for their children - ie. up all night with a crying baby

  children who can smile happily and play despite having lost limbs due to disease (the baby on the news last night who'd had meningitis and lost her arms and legs). She was happily trying to beat a drum with her elbow. the smile on her face was utterly divine. Her parents said that if some good could come out what had happened to her to prevent it happening again it would make it worth it.

  the tsunami has been mentioned. The story of how an entire family survived after clinging to life was truly heroic.
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  Ruby456

  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-29700444