Eliveleth I do not mean this disrespectfully but how do you even know I believe in the bible? If I don't then all your arguments are useless. Anyways I was simply point out the obvious fallacy in the B.C. teaching and C.E. teachings. Your "Made in God's image" is a bit overstated as well. If we were created in God's image in the Christian sense it was as a perfect being and not imperfect. Strong emotions did not come in to play until imperfection hit according to the bible. Adam and Eve felt shame after eating the fruit because they were naked. Then Cain killed Abel in anger which is implied as being sin it's self (Genesis 3:6,7). I have a belief but I also believe that authors stretched a lot of things to explain the unexplainable. It's much easier to say, "oh God did it", or make God some human like being then it is to actually get to the bottom and think things out.
I got a jesus question
by lancelink 23 Replies latest watchtower bible
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LayingLow
I think your view of what Jesus death effected will largely affect how you view the value of his sacrifice.
For instance, why did Jesus die?:
1. To conquer death and the devil by proving them to be lawless since death consumed a man it had no right to bind. (Eastern Orthodox view)
2. That not the person itself but the act of obedience unto death negated the actions of Adam which were disobedience unto death
3. That one perfect man sinned and one perfect man had to die in order to substitute for him. (JW)
Which one of the above ( or a mixture of which ) definitely does make a difference. JW's believe that Jesus shed his humanity to buy back what Adam lost so they can not permit theologically for him to take his flesh back and live again, even though he did. I always felt #3 left a little lacking, like what about our personal sins? The perfect man can cover original sin but what about personal sin (maybe it takes something greater than perfect man).
**** I meant to post this as a reply to a different post but in this thread. ( The one about Jesus resurrection nullifying the value of his sacrifice ) -
VoidEater
Thanks, Velta, for your views - I'm not sure I would agree, but the way you express yourself makes it easy to understand what your saying. I've always appreciated your style and contributions.
LayingLow - I gotta comment! I really appreciate reading "effect" and "affect" being used properly! So many confuse the two words...(silly comment, I know...sorry!)
To answer the OP, "Do you think mankind has taken the sacrifice of Jesus, and molded it to play more into our emotions?" - of course, yes, it is a presumption and based on our expecting God to react in human ways.
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Eliveleth
Burger Time: No disrespect taken. I am merely stating what I believe. I know there are a lot of people on this board
that do not believe as I do and I respectfully accept that. I meant my post merely as an exchange of ideas and how
I view Jesus death.
Void Eater: You are always so kind and accepting regardless of our differences. Thank you.
Love and hugs,
Velta
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JCanon
Poppers: It never made sense to me that the death of Jesus was a sacrifice because he "resurrected"? Where is the sacrifice? Nothing was lost.
A brilliant question. Most people miss this. Christ dying was not the "sacrifice." It was part of the process. But what he loss was the right to that human life again as Jesus the son of Joseph. That is what was lost. When Christ ascended to heaven he presented that body or the right to materialize it again to Jehovah. That assured that all the potential children entitled to this body, resurrected or not, could never be. Instead, he exchanged his right to his own children to adopt Adam's children. The death of those potential children were in exchange for each one of mankind so that Adamic sin does not condemn them. If some go beyond Adamic sin, though, and simply rebel without repenting, then Christ's sacrifice does not cover that, no more than Satan being perfect didn't save him either. I know you were going to ask this next: Since Christ must return in the flesh, how is it that he doesn't have use of his body any more? Answer is, he doesn't. He never appeared in his own body, per se, after his resurrection. That foreshadowed that at the second coming he would be "borrowing" somone else's body, one of his chosen followers. Thus at the second coming he is not a perfect man, but an ordinary man. Christ serves with his followers, 1,440,000 king priests (144,000 natural Jews, 10%) in this imperfect body. When after Judgment Day all the anointed give up their fleshly bodies and take on spiritual ones. If you're still thinking nothing major was lost, though, that's fine. Whatever was "lost" was the essential to nullifying Adam's inherited sin. In the end, everything will work out and Jesus will given everything he truly wants. Pain and suffering will be a lost memory. JC
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oompa
You are dead on. I never could get worked up about this...BIG DEAL....his perfect creation of zillions of years, is gonna be alseep for like 2.2 days?????? I used to hear all these dramatic talks, but could not feel a dang thing except SO WHUT!!...............oompa
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JCanon
Oompa: You are dead on. I never could get worked up about this...BIG DEAL....his perfect creation of zillions of years, is gonna be alseep for like 2.2 days?????? I used to hear all these dramatic talks, but could not feel a dang thing except SO WHUT!!...............oompa
Christ had to die in order to sacrifice his HUMAN LIFE. Christ's spiritual life could not save us. So Christ was born as a human and acquired a human identity, that of Jesus. That PERSON who died, that body, and its right to bear children was given up and thus died once for all time. That's why at the second coming, Christ, who appears in the flesh again for the second coming has to sort of "borrow" the body and identity of one of his followers. Now all Christ's followers must also die on behalf of the Christ, that's a given. They are baptized which represents them dying to their personal life and adopting a life dedicated to god. So the person whom Jesus inhabits at the second coming has to die willinging, giving up his own life so that Jehovah can use him in the capacity of the messiah. This is the prodigal son who returns to God's house whom he makes the chief heir and gives him a banquet, which is another reference to the wedding feast of the second coming.
So instead of thinking of this being only a death of 3 days and 3 nights, think in terms of the HUMAN who upon being presented in heaven to god in exchange for YOU (one of Adam's children), has died for eternity since that human can never come alive again.
But let's be ironical here. Whatever the pain personally or not that Christ and Jehovah felt through this ordeal, it was necessary to accomplish the dual purpose of the salvation of mankind and the removal of Satan.
Another perspective is the "widow's might." If a friend whose life savings is only $50,000 and you needed that for an operation to save your life and he gave that up, you'd think of that as a major sacrifice. If Bill Gates heard about you while gambling in Monte Carlo and he just won $300,000 on a hand after losing over 3 million that night and the house rules say if he won $300,000 he has to give it to taxes or some charity and he gave it to you, maybe you wouldn't think it was such a gift. But the fact is you needed it either way. In Jehovah's case, he could have given any one of the angels for this task, instead he gave it to his only-begotten son.
Bottom line, a lot of people are going to get the reward of that sacrifice, eternal life. And they are very, very, very appreciative of it. That's because they value their own lives. Others who are rather complacement about everything and unappreciative might not exert themselves enough to get that prize and they will lose out. Problem is, once they have lost they will wish they had been more appreciative. There will be a lot of "buyer's remorse" out there, a lot of "weeping and gnashing of the teeth."
I'm just surmising here, but probably those who value Christ's sacrifice more will be more likely to benefit from it. Those who tend to have disdain for that sacrifice, will not benefit from it. They will inherit Satan's gift to them, which is death. Only not death for 3 days and 3 nights, but death throughout eternity.
JC
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Rapunzel
Ugh, J.C., you mention the "widow's might," but I think you mean the "widow's mite." That's m-i-t-e. I do so hate to be so nit-picky, but in writing the "widow's might," you're talking about her power and majesty, neither of which she had. So, it sounds kind of absurd, since the whole point of the parable is that she had almost no money at all, and thus no power. Your mistake surprises me because, after all, given that you claim to be J(esus) C(hrist) Anon(ymous), this is [was] your parable!!! You disappoint me, J.C.
Anyway, in Jesus' [your?] day, a mite was also known as a lepton. It was worth even less than a Roman quadrans. The mite was minted by a Judean king several decades before Jesus' [your?] birth. It was a bronze coin still in circulation when the gospel of Mark was written. The fact that Jesus [you?} should compare it with the Roman quadrans shows that the people listening to the parable were familiar with Roman customs and culture.
J.C., you, of all people, should know his. After all, you were there. It was your parable.
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LayingLow
How did the death of a human pay for the sins since the original sin (I'm a Christian but I don't understand the justice system that this works on)? Why would Jesus take over another human being (sounds gnostic, or maybe more like the Ras Ghouls on Stargate SG1)? How will they look to the one they pierced when he's gone and some other guy that nobody recognizes is appearing and saying he is Jesus (many will come in his name saying "I am the Christ")?
Something doesn't seem to add up. -
Eliveleth
JCanon Christ had to die in order to sacrifice his HUMAN LIFE. Christ's spiritual life could not save us. So Christ was born as a human and acquired a human identity, that of Jesus. That PERSON who died, that body, and its right to bear children was given up and thus died once for all time. That's why at the second coming, Christ, who appears in the flesh again for the second coming has to sort of "borrow" the body and identity of one of his followers. Now all Christ's followers must also die on behalf of the Christ, that's a given. They are baptized which represents them dying to their personal life and adopting a life dedicated to god. So the person whom Jesus inhabits at the second coming has to die willinging, giving up his own life so that Jehovah can use him in the capacity of the messiah.
So instead of thinking of this being only a death of 3 days and 3 nights, think in terms of the HUMAN who upon being presented in heaven to god in exchange for YOU (one of Adam's children), has died for eternity since that human can never come alive again.
Jesus gave up his HUMAN life with all its prospects, but the Bible says that he was RAISED from the dead. How could he do this if his spirit is all that was alive and that was "commended to his Father" on the day of his death. Luke 23:46 NSRV:"Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit."
1 Peter 3: 18,19 NRSV:"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison,, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah".........
Jesus' spirit was alive, but he was not resurrected until the third day.
Matthre 17:23: NIV: "They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life." And the disciples were filled with grief."
1 Cor 15: 35-50 NIV says in the resurrection, we will be raised in a "spiritual BODY". Since he took the value of his sacrificed body to heaven. It seems to me that he was raised in that body which is resurrected not as HUMAN but as A GLORIFIED BODY. Which is his resurrection BODY
.vs. 35B ut someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown anatural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven. 50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
The Bible indicates that we, his followers, will be resurrected to be LIKE HIM
Philippians 3:10
I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
Philippians 3:9-11
who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
The Bible says we were created in God's image. Genesis 1:26,27
God is a spirit, so we are spirits in "earth suits", a body created out of the earth. Since our spirits are in HUMAN bodies here on earth, when we are resurrected, like him, we will have SPIRITUAL BODIES in heaven.
Jesus apparently is different than the others in heaven. Revelation says that he appears to be like a "son of man" in heaven.
Revelation 1:9
[ One like a Son of Man ] I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 1:8-10 NIV
"and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man," dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest."
Revelation 1:12-14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand."
Who is this? From this scripture, it appears to be Jesus.
Revelation 1:17, 18:" When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."
In my reading and studying of the Bible, there is no place that I have seen that even intimates that Jesus will "take" someone else's body when he returns to earth. Can you show me this?
In Rev. 21 when it talks about Jesus, in his return. he is unique. He is not in a "sort of borrowed" body. It says that there is no need of a "light or a temple" because his glory gives it light".
Rev 21:22: " I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp."
If he had a "borrowed" body, it does not seem to me that it would have this glory. It is HIS GLORIOUS SPIRITUAL BODY.
These are just some of the questions that your post brings to my mind. Could you please give me some scriptures on this? Thanks.
Love and hugs,
Velta