Evil, free will and the bible.

by Anti-Christ 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  hamilcarr

  BTS,

  No 'sola gratia', but self-merit leading to salvation?
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  BurnTheShips

  No 'sola gratia', but self-merit leading to salvation?

  Gratia enables.
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  hamilcarr

  Gratia enables.

  A far cry from being "master" of life and fate.
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  BurnTheShips

  A far cry from being "master" of life and fate.

  Not at all.
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  hamilcarr

  I suppose you are not in charge of your salvation, nevertheless the most important aspect of a christian life?
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  BurnTheShips

  I suppose you are not in charge of your salvation, nevertheless the most important aspect of a christian life?

  I am not so sure that salvation is the most important aspect of Christian live. However, as a Christian I believe if we choose to cooperate with God's freely given grace, we can receive salvation. If we choose to resist it, we will lose it. The grace is freely given, the choice is ours to heed it or not. The way John Wesley explained it has really influenced my own understanding of it.

  http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/128/

  First. It is free in all to whom it is given. It does not depend on any power or merit in man; no, not in any degree, neither in whole, nor in part. It does not in anywise depend either on the good works or righteousness of the receiver; not on anything he has done, or anything he is. It does not depend on his endeavors. It does not depend on his good tempers, or good desires, or good purposes and intentions; for all these flow from the free grace of God; they are the streams only, not the fountain. They are the fruits of free grace, and not the root. They are not the cause, but the effects of it. Whatsoever good is in man, or is done by man, God is the author and doer of it. Thus is his grace free in all; that is, no way depending on any power or merit in man, but on God alone, who freely gave us his own Son, and "with him freely giveth us all things.

  Burn
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  hamilcarr

  Thanks for the interesting link and the clarifications.

  I believe their disagreement on the doctrine of predestination caused the split between Wesley and Whitefield in the early Methodist church. Because of your arminian interpretation of salvation I see why you have a more moderate view on the faith / works dichotomy. Still, I believe that according to your stand on these issues, you should have said God is the author (cf. quote), hence master of your 'fate'.
• 

  IMustBreakAway

  If I built an artificial intelligence and it choose as its mission to DESTROY ALL HUMANS. Would I be responsible in part for its actions?
  If I had a birthday party for a child and filled a table with cupcakes and told all the little kids that the cupcake with red icing was poisoned would I be responsible for the death of the one kid that choose to eat the cupcake anyway? (I am pretty sure that I would go to jail.)
  Why? I warned the kid that the cupcake was poisoned. He choose to eat it anyway. How is that my fault? I told the AI that Humans shouldn’t be destroyed, why is it my fault if he doesn’t listen?
  IMO it is my fault because I am the responsible adult, and because I put in motion the events, because I gave the AI all the tools he needed to DESTROY ALL HUMANS. Because as the responsible adult I should protect the children and not give them poisoned cupcakes to eat.
  God (if there is such a thing) not only gives us the tools and desires and ability to do “evil”. But then claims not to. He gave us a giant snake to play with and then said, “I didn’t give you a snake!”
  God (if there is such a thing) is a jerk. He obviously wants us to kill him.
  My point (if there is such a thing) is the reason it is so hard to reconcile the whole free will/evil thing is because if there is a God, then he/she is ultimately responsible for everything. Everything good and bad, brilliant and mediocre.
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  IMustBreakAway

  Really enjoying everyone's comments though. Sorry for my rather simplistic two bits.
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  Anti-Christ

  Free will" is a master's word.

  One of the most effective and unexpensive tools for controlling slaves. Make them believe they choose to do, or not to do, the master's will. Make them feel good if they do, bad if they don't.

  Break the master's word, and its underlying dichotomy of good and bad, and both freedom and will burst forth with a fresh and powerful meaning.

  I like that! It reminds me of democracy, choosing your master does not make you free, not exactly the same but similar.

  Yes, I agree with you. Then what should be considered as a sin?

  Welcome to the board myriam. To answer your question there is no such thing as sin.

  However, as a Christian I believe if we choose to cooperate with God's freely given grace, we can receive salvation. If we choose to resist it, we will lose it. The grace is freely given, the choice is ours to heed it or not. The way John Wesley explained it has really influenced my own understanding of it.

  I never got the "free grace" thing I read the comment but I find it contradicting. It's like if someone builds a house and has food to give tells you it's free but you must do what he tells you in order to receive any of it but still says it's free.

  Sorry for my rather simplistic two bits

  No need to apologize, what you said made sense to me.