INPUT NEEDED ON JW BELIEFS (page 2)

hubert

http://www.watchtowernews.org/randcam.htm

Here's a link you can start with.

Hubert

Here are some of my issues:

1.Jesus said NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR, so how can ANYONE predict it, including the WTS. He also said when you do not think the end is coming, that's when it will come. Right now, even Christendom is looking for it.

2. Revelation indicates a World Government AND the image of the beast 'putting all men, the great and the small under compulsion'. That has yet to come AND it will take quite a while, years, if not decades, to accomplish.

3. Our salvation comes from God, his undeserved kindness, not from attending meetings and going door to door.
Do these things if you like, but THEY WILL NOT SAVE YOU.

4. Each one will carry his own load. Why doesn't the WTS let us EACH carry our own load?

5. We are no longer under the LAW, so why does the WTS have SO MANY rules of conduct?

6. When a better interpretation of a scripture, or scriptures looks more feasible, instead of saying it COULD be correct, instead of the current thought, you get a pat on the head and a "wait on Jehovah" answer, especially if the new view is the opposite of current thought.

7. The Governing Body and the 144,000 are just human beings, but many times they are viewed as being flawless, like the way many Catholics view the Pope and the Jesuits.

Am I done yet?

Warlock

AK - Jeff

Good idea Mary.

I might be tempted to add some classical scriptural proofs that God never did deal with an organization, as the WTS likes to suggest.

He dealt with individuals. Those individuals often passed on what they perceived God's will to be - but it was not a rule by committee, like the GB of Jehovah's Witnesses. The word of God was clear, delivered to an individual, and never voted upon. The list of individuals is long. Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses. In fact, the OT God deemed that Pharaoh, the families of Korah, et al, to be worthy of death, not for disrespecting the camp of Israel, but for disrespecting the individual that He has selected to work with at the moment.

Then for a long stretch He dealt with a political state that was without monarch or king for over 350 years. Throughout that period of time, he used individuals, denoted in scripture as 'Judges'. Even when He began dealing with a nation headed by a King, he was almost always seen in Scripture to direct those dealings through individuals within Israel, ergo Solomon, David, the individual prophets, Daniel, etc. Often that direction came from lowly members of the nation, individuals with no pre-certified approval of God to the outward appearance. That nation soon became two nations, not a solitary one, and even through that period, He used individuals to direct. Later he supposedly inspired writings, always written by an individual. And then He used Jesus, an individual, to deliver His will, and clarify His purposes. Jesus established no organization, but inspired individuals to work alongside him.

There is quite simply no parallel that can stretch far enough to fairly compare the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses to the way God dealt with those of His favor in the past.

I like Tom Cabeen's take on this issue: http://www.brci.org/Attachments/Org.pdf

I hope the package works out well. I would love to see it when you are done. Brevity is key as noted.

Jeff

MeneMene

Here's a thread on Rand Cam - http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/32179/1.ashx

Zico

A comment on false prophecies might be useful. Not just dates, but events (i.e. Rutherford predicting the axis powers would win WW2, Catholics taking over the world, Germany/Communist Russia as final King of the North)

It's important, because most JWs are dedicating their lives to a prophecy, and it should cast doubts on the events that are supposed to lead up to the 'Great Tribulation' (banning of religion)

Mary

Warlock said: The Governing Body and the 144,000 are just human beings, but many times they are viewed as being flawless, like the way many Catholics view the Pope and the Jesuits.

In light of recent WT studies, I think this is one I'll add to the list. Thanks hon.

Thanks for those links for the military contracts!

Jeff, I'll definitely let you know when it's ready.......and yep, I'm thinking a brief summary, perhaps from Quotes, about all the flip flopping on doctrines will be included.....there's so many of them to chose from, I'll have to try and whittle it down to a few.

seven006

Mary,

You are dealing with programmed minds. When you are trying to reason with someone like that you need to find some common ground for them to agree with you on "first" that does not shut their information receptors off and automatically reject the information you are trying present.

You said “Basically, this would be a package for those who have family or friends in the Borg, but who you think might listen to reason if it was presented in the right fashion”

Are you talking about people who are “not” a JW but have family in? Or are you talking about those who are in, but are already having problems with the organization and are starting to develop critical thinking skills?

Are you going to try and target your package to any “seemingly” diehard JWs or just ones who already have one foot out the door in hopes they will pass it on to their family and friends?” In other words is your “main objective” to present this “only” for the benefit of the “questioning” JW or for them to use in trying to convince their “still in” die hard relatives and friends about the information that is presented?

The topic list that you have mentioned and has been added to in this thread looks to be made up of topics that can kick in that auto reaction subconscious programming. Not that they are bad topics at all but they might only be received well by those who are already half way out and already have a common ground perspective. If that is your “only” targeted market, then these are good but if you want to go deeper into the really die hard programmed JW mind, then these topics presented directly with out first tying to reach a common ground for agreement might give you the opposite effect you are hopping for.

Members of ALL the American made cult like minority religions were programmed in a very similar manner and to identical depths of intensity. They all automatically shut their programmed reasoning ability off when they are confronted with what they understand to be confrontational apostate propaganda no matter how factual it is or how much you can prove it. More for the die hard JW but the programmed auto response factor still subconsciously kicks in for those who are questioning and are "just beginning" to use some critical thinking skills.

It is exactly like the programmed responses of Pavlov’s dogs. It is a subconsciously triggered automatic reaction.

Just a thought.

Dave

cognac

Yeah, there beliefs are disowning there own friggin daughter because she doesn't believe billions of friggin people are going to die.

That's there friggin beliefs...

DoomVoyager

You could include a very brief summary of all their flip-flops on Generation and Sodom...

there have been at least 8 different Generations:

http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/generation.htm

there have been 6 or 7 flip flops from Yes to No to Yes again as to whether or not the Sodomites will be resurrected.

Atlantis

Mary:

A few quotes on "Mediator" might be helpful! I know several JW's who walked away from the Borg never to return, because they found out the Watchtower claimed that Jesus was "Mediator" for the 144,000 only.

N.

INPUT NEEDED ON JW BELIEFS

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