God's Plan

by serotonin_wraith 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Anti-Christ

I hope you know that I'm just messing around.
BurnTheShips

This is not a complaint, but an explanation:
If God can see into the future, he knew before I was born that I would do the things I do. In fact, he knew before the universe was created what I would be like. Since he went ahead and made things this way, I can only assume it's God's plan.
Knowing what you will do is not the same as ordaining what you will do, God may be able to see the entire timeline from up on His throne in Eternity, but that does not require any violation of your will. And God, being outside of Time, only foresaw from our own timebound perspective.
So choose. But choose wisely.
Is everything that happens part of God's plan?
Yes - then I don't have free will.
No - then some things are out of God's control and he isn't all powerful.
No, some things are out of God's control, yet he is all powerful. He needn't exert his power in order to possess it. A God who gives us the free will to accept His graces (or deny them) would therefore in some respects be an observer of His own creation. Me, I have no problem with that statement. I prefer that than to consider God little more than a mere puppetmaster. God has relinquished control of some parts of his creation, namely humans, so that they can exert their wills, and thus be like Him in that they have (relatively) free wills. Paradoxically, even your rejection of God, your hate of Him and turning away as an exercise of your own will, is futile and ultimately will only result in the fulfillment of His overarching plan. What your own particular ultimate end will be is another question altogether. God respects your will. If you choose not to be with Him in eternity, he will respect your choice.
“Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate.”
Karl Barth.
To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness."
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Two important things here: The first is that God exists outside of time, thus free will can exist for humans without violating God's will. The second is that God uses human's sins and turns them around for good, i.e., even when humans think they are rebelling against God they are actually playing into His hands (long term plans). God allows evil but will make it play out for good in the end .
Burn
Inquisitor

No, some things are out of God's control, yet he is all powerful.
How can the Highest Being be omnipotent when there are things out of his control??
He needn't exert his power in order to possess it.
He doesn't use force? Sure! But does He exert influence? Does He start the ball rolling without actively interfering with it? If so, then He DOES influence everything and there is NOTHING outside of His control. He owns everything and is ACCOUNTABLE for everything. Why? Becuase they occur by His will, by His permission, by His negligence/interference. There is no independent phenomena. He is the Source.
But if He does not influence everything. If He does grant genuine independence of action and thought to His creation. Then He cannot be in constant control of everything can He? This rubbish about turning every evil thing into something good is merely a saving God's face exercise. The Divine One controls even the bad events bcos He is all powerful, but don't hold Him accountable bcos He is ultimately GOOD and has more affection for humans than Carebears do.
God uses human's sins and turns them around for good, i.e., even when humans think they are rebelling against God they are actually playing into His hands (long term plans). God allows evil but will make it play out for good in the end .
So what's this ultimate good that has been accomplished by every child that has been sexually abused? Or every Jew that was gassed during the Nazi regime? Or the tsunami that wrecked properties and drowned lives? If there is every good in "evil" events, perhaps you should not oppose social welfare systems so much. Perhaps your God has yet to reveal to you what some of us already understand.
If this God has a finger even on the "uncontrollable" events, is He accountable for them?
The first is that God exists outside of time, thus free will can exist for humans without violating God's will.
???? So if God exists within the boundaries of time, there is no true free will? What does astrophysics have to do with free will????
BurnTheShips

How can the Highest Being be omnipotent when there are things out of his control??
Because he relinquishes control. Not that he us unable to control.
Does He start the ball rolling without actively interfering with it?
A rolling ball is deterministic. Free Will is not. If it was deterministic, it would not be Free Will.
If so, then He DOES influence everything and there is NOTHING outside of His control.
God is the Final Cause (since he made a Universe in which free will can exist), but he is not the Efficient Cause of evil. Humans are the efficient causes.
He owns everything and is ACCOUNTABLE for everything. Why? Becuase they occur by His will, by His permission, by His negligence/interference. There is no independent phenomena. He is the Source.
God wills our ability to will, but he does not always will for us what we will for ourselves.
Even if this were all true, we cannot judge Him rightly because we do not have the necessary sapience to do so. To judge where you are ignorant is to be a fool.
The Divine One controls even the bad events bcos He is all powerful, but don't hold Him accountable bcos He is ultimately GOOD and has more affection for humans than Carebears do.
The divine one does not control or cause evil, but allows it. Despite the fact that evil is an offense to him, his sublime power and wisdom allows him to turn even great evil to good. We are mid-novel here. All the loose ends are drawn together in the final chapter. I have faith in the Author, and it has been a great read so far.
So what's this ultimate good that has been accomplished by every child that has been sexually abused? Or every Jew that was gassed during the Nazi regime? Or the tsunami that wrecked properties and drowned lives? If there is every good in "evil" events, perhaps you should not oppose social welfare systems so much. Perhaps your God has yet to reveal to you what some of us already understand.
I don't know, I don't know (but I have suspicions), I don't know. Bringing politics that belongs in another thread into this is not fair, IMHO.
If this God has a finger even on the "uncontrollable" events, is He accountable for them?
Human events? Or natural causes? Earthquakes and tsunamis are not evil.
???? So if God exists within the boundaries of time, there is no true free will? What does astrophysics have to do with free will????
Hang around for a while, but don't be so damned angry.
Burn
serotonin_wraith

A-C, God chooses not to know - I know you don't believe this, so these are just general ponderings...
God either knows everything, or he doesn't. Is he putting up a 'mental block' for himself? "Oooh, I can see serotonin_wraith is going to disbelieve in 15 billion years. I'll wipe that from my knowledge, even though I already know it. How will I ever gain that knowledge again? I'm making myself forget it. I know, I'll set a timer to go off, a memory alarm which will return all this blocked knowledge to me in the future, even though I exist outside time. Time is meaningless to me, so shouldn't I know everything at all times whether it's 15 billion earth years before SW's time, or billions of years after? It's great how I can start the universe off and make sure humans will evolve in several billion earth years to become my favourite species, and I even know the number of hairs on their heads, but when SW dies a disbeliever and I send him off to hell, I'll be genuinely shocked. I won't have seen it coming. Me, the creator of the universe! Once that knowledge returns, I can go 'ah yes, that's right. I set it up that way. I knew he would disbelieve and mock me' and even though I made myself forget, that had no impact on his life as he did what was planned right from the start, when I created hell before knowing humans would sin, when I designed a universe which would lead to SW's birth and disbelief."
Burn,
I'm not choosing. I am how God knew I would be. Just like he knew his religion would only reach a third of the planet when he tried promoting it with his book, so he'd have to send everyone else to hell. Just like he knew false religions existed before his true one and that the human mind (designed by him) usually accepts the religion of its parents, damning all those people born in the wrong time and place.
I can't choose to believe. I either do or I don't. I could pray and go to church and be a good Christian, but that would be going through the motions. It wouldn't make me believe.
It's not just a matter of God possessing the power to stop Satan and choosing not to. Satan was designed to fall. If he's God, he could have given us free will and prevented us from sinning. He blocked our free will in other areas. I don't have the free will to fly unaided or hold my breath for 5 hours. I'm limited. If God put those limits on me, he could have prevented my disbelief too.
If there is a hell, I'm not choosing to go there. I can't make myself believe something that goes against reason and evidence. That's how God designed my brain. God also chose the punishment. He could have made it so every sinner would be forced to eat a cake made of worms when they died if he'd wanted. But he didn't. He chose to make a magical eternal fireplace. I'm not choosing to go anywhere.
I don't hate God. I don't hate any fictional characters.
The first is that God exists outside of time, thus free will can exist for humans without violating God's will.
Can God interfere in things that happen within time? Sending his son, flooding the earth or part of it, the plagues, the handwritten stone of 10 commandments. The Bible seems to be saying he can, so even if he exists outside time it doesn't matter. He can change things that happen to us. He could have 'guided' evolution differently or hid that fruit tree better. Even when creating a universe with time, he was outside time at the time and could have set things up to 'guide' evolution then. He did 'guide' evolution, right? Whether he did that within our time or outside time... Argh, headache!
even when humans think they are rebelling against God they are actually playing into His hands (long term plans). God allows evil but will make it play out for good in the end .
To stop his fireplace going out?
serotonin_wraith

To add: I'm glad you wrote that last bit though.
Atheists rebelling against God must be for the greater good (I agree, though for different reasons) so I don't think you're in a position to say anything negative about it from now on. God has his reasons for allowing it.
Perry

I don't hate God. I don't hate any fictional characters.
One sentence assumes Gods' existence; the next denies it. Why do you spend so much time evualating a God that you have decided doesn't exist? I'm not trying to be disrespectful here, it's just that I wonder what atheists would do with their time if believers were fictional. Can you describe a little bit about that kind of an existence?
I mean what's the end game? Believers want to be with God in a restored relationship. What do atheists want? Just curious.
BurnTheShips

Atheists rebelling against God must be for the greater good (I agree, though for different reasons) so I don't think you're in a position to say anything negative about it from now on.
That's not the point. That God can turn evil into ultimate good does not mean that the evil in itself is good (or that it should be condoned), so I don't think you're in a position to tell me what to say or not to say.
Nice try, but you fail.
nvrgnbk

What do atheists want?
The atheists that I know want to exist in reality, as free as possible from delusion, no matter how comforting.
R.Crusoe

Well so far we have billions of dead humans and all manner of life!
So if it was gads plan it sure dont seem as mathematically predictable as the cosmos - or is that just because the guy who worked it all out isn't telling us?
Humanity is like the weather - you never know at exactly what second the sun will shine or when a typhoon will hit. Chaotic.
Maybe humans aren't collectively much better than the god they criticise = unless we just haven't awoken yet???
To the fact he is inside each of us - to combine and save life on Earth?
Maybe??

God's Plan

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