leolaia said Isaiah 3:16-17

blkblk13

Mentions Michael helping Jesus out of his tomb. I looked up that scripture didn't find anything that talked about that. Does anyone know the actuall scripture she was talking about? Im am using the NWTS so maybe it's diff in my bible? I tried to have a discussion w/ my mom about the change in the generations doctrine tonight but she had me leaving believin that the Society is right. Im kinda of at a crossroads here so something that shows for sure in the bible that Michael and Jesus r seperate would be earthsaking 4 me. If anyone could supply the scripture I'd b much obliged. thanx.

real one

John 8: 32 and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. Welcome blkblk13, you are on your way to being set free! First of all get rid of that nwt and get the kjv or niv. they have the true scriptures in them, did you know that only jw read the nwt....why do you think that is?

Hebrews 1:5, For to which of the angels did he ever say "Thou art my son today, I have begotten thee."

Jesus is not an angel

Casper

Welcome Blkblk13...

Hopefully Leolaia will pop in and give you an answer to your question.

We look forward to hearing more about you and your experiences.

Cas

PopeOfEruke

Here's a thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/45177/1.ashx

It mentions Daniel 10:13 - maybe this is the one you are thinking of?

Daniel 10:13: But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but, behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Pope

Leolaia

Hi, welcome to JWD....The reference in the essay was not to the OT book of Isaiah but to the early Christian book called the Ascension of Isaiah:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascension_of_Isaiah

I cited it as a parallel to Revelation's portrayal of Jesus and Michael as distinct persons.

JCanon

Hebrews 1:5, For to which of the angels did he ever say "Thou art my son today, I have begotten thee."
Jesus is not an angel

If Jesus was not an angel there would be no need to compare him to an angel. By comparing him to the angels it proves he was an angel, only a unique one.

It's rather funny, though, how many think this proves Jesus was not an angel and others think just the opposite, that it proves he was.

For those (like myself) who believe Jesus/Michael is an angel, this scripture shows how unique Jesus is an angel being the only direct creation of God. Just as we have confirmed for us that Jesus was the "firstborn of creation" and that everything was created by him, through him and for him, it makes him unique.

Jesus is called "the Word" which is a reference of the manner of creation. Creation is spoken, such as "Let there be light..", etc. So when Jehovah was creating everything through Christ, he was doing the actual speaking and thus he became known as "The Word". So when all the other angels were created Jehovah didn't directly say anything, Christ did. But when it came to creating Christ, Jehovah had to actually say the word himself, and those words that created the Christ/Michael was as noted: "Thou art my son today, I have begotten thee." To none of the OTHER angels did Jehovah make this utterance, but only for Jesus. That is what makes him the "only begotten son of god" because he is the only creation directly created by Jehovah.

So there's no getting around Jesus and Michael not being the same person. Besides 1 Thess. 4:15 says he has an archangel's voice. What is he doing with the voice of an angel if he wasn't an angel. But it happens to be an archangel's voice and Michael is the only archangel in the Bible, so that confirms it.

This might shock you though. The two "covering cherubs" depicted on the Ark of the Covenant represent two very special angels. One of them is Michael. The other one is considered his companion or wife, and that covering cherub, before being cast off holy mount zion, which the ark represents, was none other than Satan. Thus at Genesis 3:15 when it says Jehovah will cause enmity between YOU and the "woman" Jehovah was talking about the war that would arise between Christ and his former woman/wife, Satan. Thus Christ's new wife, the church will be in that special place of holiness on Holy Mount Zion and become Jehovah's temple. Thus essentially Christ is a divorcee and the Bride Class replace Satan as Christ's wife.

JC

jwfacts

Welcome to JWD.

I tried to have a discussion w/ my mom about the change in the generations doctrine tonight but she had me leaving believin that the Society is right.

I find it hard to believe she could convince you the Society is right on the generation change, when they have had so many dramatically different understandings of the generation. Exactly when did they get it right, just this final teaching, or all the numerous understandings they have had, which all JWs accepted as truth and promoted from door to door for the last 130 years? I have embedded an article showing each of the different understandings.

Morgana

The two "covering cherubs" depicted on the Ark of the Covenant represent two very special angels. One of them is Michael.

If that were so than we know what he looked like -- this is an ivory carving from Ahab's palace, displayed at the Rockefeller Museum (formerly the Palestine Archaeological Museum) in Jerusalem:

Yes, it may come as a surprise to some, but the ancient Hebrews pictured Cherubs as winged sphinxes, and no at all as human-like figures!

real one

JCanon, Jesus is not Michael

But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever...'" Hebrews 1:8a (emphasis added).

"But to which of the angels has He ever said, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet?' Are they [the angels] not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?" Hebrews 1:13-14 (emphasis added).

blkblk13

So, JCanon is someone who believes Michael and Jesus r the same. My mother does as well and she used Hebrews 1:13-14 as proof that Jesus does have a invisible presence b/c God told him to sit @ his right hand and WAIT untill his enemies r placed as bla bla bla. So she feels this is evidence that Jesus is in a position of power @ Gods right hand and waiting, which is the invisible presence. This made since last night. I guess I still believe it, but for my own reasons Im looking 4 a way out and am hoping I can find a doctrinal/biblical reason that is irrefutable but since the bible can be interpreted in so many ways I don't think I'll ever be able 2.

leolaia said Isaiah 3:16-17

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