Who really OWNS each Kingdom Hall? (page 2)

OnTheWayOut

I supposed the WTS could have "punished" that congregation(s) but they didn't. Dissolving congregations for any reason is very disruptive to their control over things. It takes some time for things to settle down. So while the WTS could be highhanded about it, I haven't seen it done too successfully.

Yes, yes. If the situation is good, don't do anything to rock the boat.

When the situation is bad, however, don't give these guys the benefit of the doubt.
They can say they are dissolving a congregation because of poor attendance or
say that the members cannot support the finances or whatever. If the elders don't
play ball, they can remove the elders and tell the congregation that the local BOE
no longer had Jehovah's spirit.

They could spin everything for positive reasons, or do this as a desparation measure
as attendance spirals down.

What seems very disruptive over their control, they might view as out of control already
unless they dissolve it. This is a measure they would take when they don't care if
things settle down soon. I am not suggesting they are going to do this just to pay off
lawsuits or anything. It is a desparate measure, but we are entering deparate times for
WTS.

blondie

I can see them dissolving congregations to combine them because of falling numbers. Some have reported that in their area. But as to punitive dissolving, I have seen that only twice because of the majority of the elder body not cooperating (in 50 years). More often they remove the ringleader and bring in company men from other congregations. I saw that in several congregations where the BOE spent all their time fighting with each other. As to dissolving to take over property just for that reason alone, I can't say it might not happen in the future if the WTS does not improve their cash flow. But right now it would cause more problems than it would solve.

lookingnow25

Three congregations in my circuit dissolved in the last 2 years.

It really hurts people.

L

crazyblondeb

Hey L

Which 3 congs dissolved? PM me if ya need to!!

shelle

White Dove

Crazyblondeb,

You have a PM:)

LouBelle

TopHat - I think the Vatican does - every catholic church is theirs.

reniaa

I'm assuming the WTS and catholic church have to buy the property in the first place anyway because new congs wouldn's have the money to outlay that amount, so wouldn't it be morally wrong if a cong all left and thought "lets keep this land and split the monies between us"?

Mickey mouse

I have heard they are encouraging congregations to share Kingdom Halls again here.

blondie

I don't know about the Catholic Church, but in this area the congregation has to come up with the money to buy the property. There may be exceptions in the case of larger cities where land is very expensive. Then several congregations usually go in together and the WTS may assist. That is why you many see 5 congregations rebuild a 2 story, finished basement building that can accommodate several congregations during the week. The meeting times get very creative and things get challenging when they have to switch the meeting times for the CO visit. I have seen WT studies on Saturday but the public talk on Sunday.

Here the congregation always saves up for the property or someone with land or with the money buys or donates it to the congregation. But still the congregation has to demonstrate they can pay the monthly mortgage to either the WTS or the commercial bank. I have seen a congregation buy land but not be able to demonstrate they can pay a mortgage. They usually end up sharing a building with one or more congregations. In that case if the KH is already paid for, each congregation pays a set amount into a maintenance fund out of which utilities and repairs are paid.

The WTS does not have the cash to throw around like they did back in the days the publications were paid for upfront by the rank and file. The WTS could make a videotape for $1 or less and turn around and "sell" it for quite a bit more.

I might mention that it is very subjective as to whether the CO checks the property. They are supposed to for the self-insurance purposes. But in the last 10 years the CO visiting here, never did it. It would be a good idea because it varies from BOE to BOE as to how well they maintain the KH building.

bud2114

Technically the title/deed of the KH building/land is in the name of the congregation (eg. South West Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses) which is set up as a non-profit organization with it's own Tax id # (separtate from the WTS or any other congregation). If the KH is shared with multiple congregations only one holds title. This title/deed is signed by 3 trustees - usually 3 congregation elders (this has to be updated frequently if any of these move, are deleted, or if the elder body decides to change).

Make no mistake, however, the KH is "owned" and controlled by the WTS (technically the branch). In the past, the local elders were allowed to make certain decisions about the use, the purchase/sale, or renovations of "their" KH with little input from the branch - mainly guidelines/suggestions. No more. At least in the US, beginning in early 2007, all decisions regarding the KH (no matter how small) are to be made through the RBC (regional building committee). This policy was laid out in a multi-day training session up in Patterson when all the RBC heads were invited (I believe it was late 2006) where it was explained this would be immediately instituted as a control measure. For example, if the local body decides to replace the carpet or to purchase new sound equipment they can no longer just do this - they must inform the RBC who will then decide if it is necessary and if so, THEY will make the arrangements, send in THEIR guys and the congregation is subsequently billed accordingly. This same scenario applies to all KH renovations, equipment purchases, the construction of new KH's, or the sale of existing KH's.

It's all about control now and it is scary. And you WILL comply or heads will roll. As an example, recently here in one local cong. the body of elders decided their KH needed a few minor repairs. As instructed, they contacted the RBC who inspected the KH and recommended renovations totaling the ridiculously exorbitant sum of $97,000. This body of elders knew that they could get this same work done with local brothers at a fraction of the cost, so they decided to ignore the RBC's recommendation and to handle this themselves. Big mistake. Of course, the same renovations were completed at the much more reasonable cost of $19,000 and the cong. was thrilled with the work and the savings. The RBC brothers were not thrilled, however, once they got wind of this and well, let's just say certain local elders in this cong. were made examples of and are no longer serving in the same capacity as they were previously. Also, to make sure this did not happen again, each area cong. got the dreaded TO THE BODY OF ELDERS letter shortly thereafter.

Historically the RBC arrangement has been rife with collusion as certain RBC brothers have for years been lining their pockets with serious kickbacks on renovation and new construction projects. Now with this new arrangement, the RBC as the WTS policing agent basically have been given carte blanche on everything having to do with the KH's. The RBC heads are put in place by the WTS and thus operate under the WTS's control. As such, the RBC can "recommend" anything and there is nothing the local brothers can do about it.

Who really OWNS each Kingdom Hall?

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