There is so much evidence around us to prove an Intelligent creator.

by nicolaou 106 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    That's an 'ever so slightly' adapted quote from TopHat on another thread; http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/108341/2880755/post.ashx#2880755

    I've been really dismissive of god/s, religion, faith and the abandoning of reason but when it comes to the 'Argument From Design', well you just have to give it a bit more . . . respect? No, that's the wrong word. I guess I have to acknowledge that there is a genuine debate to be had.

    Complicated things do look designed. The human brain does seem to suggest an intelligent creator.

    How can we start off this debate about intelligent design and can we all agree to try and keep it civil?

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Given a look at the "evidence" to support evolution and then taking at a look at the complexities of the material universe, which one, the theory of evolution or intelligent design, uses more magical thinking?

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan

    I don't know if there is room for discussion really. The "argument from design" falls flat on its face, crashes and burns, grinds to a halt, slams into a brick wall, etc. etc. etc. the moment the question is asked, "so who designed the designer?" I've never seen anything remotely approaching a good answer to that question.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    Animals not well 'designed' die. 99% are now gone. We are left with the 1% that were 'designed' well. Except it wasn't design. That 1% just went through the right changes in order to survive their environment.

    Is the lucky lottery winner designed to win? Or is it just common sense that a few people will when there are so many failed attempts?

  • easyreader1970
    easyreader1970

    When I was eleven years old, I asked an elder how Jehovah could have always existed. He could not answer that question in a satisfactory manner.

    To date, nobody has. Does he exist outside of the time-space continuum? If so, wouldn't he still have had to have a beginning? What the hell was he doing before he decided to create the Universe? Was there another failed universe before this one where everyone rejected Christ and he had to kill everybody in it and start completely over from scratch?

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC

    I remember a post of SNG a long time back that broke me of thinking that complexity necessitates intelligent design. Thanks SNG! You really helped me free my mind. I dont know if I ever told you that.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/87711/1.ashx

    As a supplement to my series on simple evidences for evolution, I thought I would also write occasional articles addressing common misunderstandings regarding evolution. In this one, we'll address that common stumbling block, "But how could something so complex have come about by chance? The probability is just too small."

    To address this, we need to understand the role that randomness plays in evolution. Imagine you are standing in a room with a white and black checkerboard tile floor. Each tile is one foot (30 centimeters for our international friends) on a side. In your hands you hold a deck of cards. You hurl the cards into the room, scattering them all over the floor. By simple chance, we should expect that roughly half the cards land on black squares and half on white squares.

    However, in this particular room, the black squares are actually not tile at all; they are "liquid hot magma," as my friend Dr. Evil would say. Any card that touches a black tile is incinerated, while the ones that land on white squares are safe.

    Now imagine that an observer enters the room at this point. She might be given to wonder how it is that all the cards in the room are on white squares. Surely this could never have happened via a random process! What are the odds that all the cards in the room would just happen to be on white squares? Surely some intelligent being placed the cards there! Right?

    As we have seen, our friend would be incorrect in her conclusion. No one intelligently placed the cards on the white squares. They were scattered by random forces. It just so happened that the environment killed off the cards that landed on the squares that were not conducive to card-existence. The only cards that were left were the ones that, by chance, happened to land on safe squares.

    Now let's move our analogy to the natural world. The hand that hurls the cards is reproduction. Every day, entire new batches of cats, dogs, yeast, tulips, wheat, and so on are being thrown out into the world, millions of little creatures that are different in various ways from each other and from their parents. Random forces create the diversity.

    The floor in our analogy is the local environment. All of creatures land in a different spot and try to make it in the world, but some of them will be swiftly wiped out if their design is not appropriate for the environment. It's cold and harsh, but that's the way it happens, just like with the cards. The only remaining creatures will be the ones that the environment "selected" as being fit.

    Notice that I say that it is the local environment that does the selecting. This is because the environment changes dramatically from place to place. What might be fit in one spot is not fit in another. Consider the lion in Africa versus the lynx in North America. Neither would survive for long in the other's environment. By wiping out all but the most successful versions of each batch of offspring, the environment causes a species to gradually become more and more suited to it, because the ones that happen to be more suited to it are successful. One can easily imagine a feline progenitor living in a cold, snowy environment becoming more and more honed toward lynx-like features over generations because the offspring with the longer hair, the bigger feet, the tufts of hair in their ears, and so on, will be more adept at survival in that harsh environment.

    So what we have are two competing forces at play. Random chance in reproduction throws out a million different candidate versions of a species. The cold, hard realities of the local environment "choose" which of those versions are worthwhile. It's a lot like selective breeding, except in this case the breeder (the local environment) brings the axe down hard on any that he doesn't like.

    Therefore, random chance does play a very important role in evolution. However, it is meaningless without an environment to do the selecting. Chance only provides the raw material for the environment to select from. To say that evolution does not make sense because of the chance involved would be to vastly misunderstand what evolution is. Indeed, evolution can only occur because of random events.

    SNG

  • marmot
    marmot

    I see the Universe as an exponentially increasing number of mathematical interactions.

    Is it evidence of an intelligent creator that one plus one equals two? Or that the ratio of any circle's circumference to its diameter is 3.14159?

    I'm not a physicist or a mathematician but in my eyes physics is just a series of more complicated mathematical interactions. To me, then, our physical world is just a more complicated version of 1+1=2.

  • 5go
    5go
    How can we start off this debate about intelligent design and can we all agree to try and keep it civil?

    The debate is over there is one side that just can't bring themselves to admit they are not scientist and have not put forth any viable theories science can work with to repeat what in scene in nature. Now, whether something sparked the beginning of life is open for debate, of course only for now. Even then just saying god did it is just to simplistic for a scientific theory.

  • easyreader1970
    easyreader1970

    I pretty much live not worrying about it. My mind cannot conceive of something always existing (the Yahweh deity), nor can I conceptualize something coming from nothing (the Big Bang). It hurts my brain to try to figure out. Tangible evidence suggests the latter, but human nature and its desire to believe the unbelievable suggests the former.

    But I do like to ask fellow Witnesses if they believe in life on other planets in the universe. Because they are astronomically limited, they assume I mean our star system.

    They say no.

    Then I ask why Jehovah made the universe so infinitely large if only to put people on a speck of a speck.

    No answer.

    Why are all the stars there?

    The Bible says they are there for light and for use to awe at.

    But over 99.9% of the universe we can't even see!

    Silence.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    The human body is so well designed.

    Here are my favourite features of this well designed body:

    Hair falls out as we get older.

    The eyes see everything upside down. The image has to be turned the right way round in the brain.

    The breathing and swallowing organs are in the same place, leading to choking (to death sometimes).

    Wisdom teeth.

    Male nipples.

    The appendix.

    We have to be unconscious for a third of our lives.

    Headaches.

    Hiccups.

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