Are Believers Truly Humble?

by serotonin_wraith 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    If you are a religious person, would you consider yourself humble?

    If you are non religious, do you still feel those with religion show a higher level of humility than others in society?

    On the face of it, I feel most would answer in the affirmative.

    But breaking it down, I find it harder and harder to accept. In fact, I'd call it the opposite of humility. I'd call it arrogance.

    Not every religious person will believe these things, so this is not a generalisation. Thinking about it, anyone who says 'well that's not my belief!' to anything in this list may still be assuming to know better than those who do believe these things. I'll pre-empt you here: possibly even some atheists.

    What may a religious person believe?

    That they are worshipping the correct god. They've narrowed down the list of gods, which runs into the thousands, to just one. All without any research into these other gods! Based on pure assumption. It doesn't matter that millions believe in other gods, or millions used to believe in gods that are no longer popular. As long as a god is being worshipped in society at the point in time they happen to be born, it's up for the taking. No questions asked.

    That they will live forever. Not only have the picked the right god, they know how this god prefers to be worshiped, and worshipping this god in the correct way will ensure they live forever. Is it humble to think you're going to survive your own death and carry on existing in a perfect realm, even though other humans won't, our sun will roast planet Earth and eventually our galaxy will collide with another galaxy? Even though these other things are finite, believers don't believe they are.

    That they are a god's favourite creation. Those who accept evolution are even more arrogant for thinking this. They understand that for millions of years, there were lifeforms without bodies, then lifeforms with bodies, which evolved for millions more years until modern mankind came on the scene 120,000 years or so ago. They know that dinosaurs existed much longer than them, they may even be aware that modern humans almost went extinct at one point. Yet they still feel that even though they're related to all species on the planet, their god likes them better. Even though it took billions of years to 'create' them.

    Those who don't accept evolution are assuming to know better than the best scientific minds in the world. Whatever evidence is shown them, their 'humble' beliefs say humans were created in their present form just a few thousand years ago.

    Real humility is open to change. Arrogance is not. I could develop this further, but I'll leave it there for now. Feel free to add any more ways you feel religious people are 'humble'. For the religious, am I wrong for thinking this? You do claim to know who the creator of the universe is, and what plans that creator has for all of us, even though you base this on 'faith' - assumptions based on no good reasons. How can I not see this as anything other than arrogant?

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    In the most benevolent sense of the word "humble", no. In fact, most "believers are more stubborn when it comes to their beliefs, even when they are proven wrong, than most atheists. Note that I am using the sense of "humble" as being willing to admit one's beliefs are wrong when it is reasonably proven so, and to alter them when reasonable evidence contradicts them.

    I think scientists that are working truly independently of an agenda, as a group, are most humble. They set a hypothesis and do experiments. From there, if the hypothesis is proven wrong, they are willing to trash them and form totally different conclusions. Often, new technology will totally throw their existing conclusions way off, forcing them to trash them. True scientists will do just that based on rational evidence.

    Of all the religions, the most humble are those studying the Bible independently or in small groups, not affiliated with an agenda. Such people are willing to trash beliefs from other religions and make more objective ones. The most humble are the ones that are not afraid to admit that the whole Bible is bunk, or that it teaches a messed-up message and it needs more objective study, based on independent study. Even if it means throwing out the whole God concept. Even if it means acknowleding Satan as a savior (along with Jesus), and God as a creator of problems where none needed exist. In that way, some atheists can be more humble than practicing Christians.

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    Humility: the quality or condition of being humble; modest opinion or estimate of one's own importance, rank, etc.

    Personally I believe humility is a rare quality among 'believers' and 'non believers' alike, mainly because as people we tend to always view our own opinions and ideas in a more idealized light than is necessary. These feelings I believe are more attributed to our experience as individuals rather than any particular dogma or methodologies we may profess.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    That they are worshipping the correct god. They've narrowed down the list of gods, which runs into the thousands, to just one. All without any research into these other gods! Based on pure assumption. It doesn't matter that millions believe in other gods, or millions used to believe in gods that are no longer popular. As long as a god is being worshipped in society at the point in time they happen to be born, it's up for the taking. No questions asked.

    Many names for one God. Many faces. Here I am BTS, somewhere else I am another name. (This is the arrogant one here).

    For example, each believer has a different view of God. This occurs as each individual interprets 'God' viscerally and strains their idea of God through a sieve of unique experiences and unique emotions. Five billion people believe in God, there you have five billion Gods.

    That they will live forever. Not only have the picked the right god, they know how this god prefers to be worshiped, and worshipping this god in the correct way will ensure they live forever. Is it humble to think you're going to survive your own death and carry on existing in a perfect realm, even though other humans won't, our sun will roast planet Earth and eventually our galaxy will collide with another galaxy? Even though these other things are finite, believers don't believe they are.

    Speaking for myself here, I don't think that only believers that will survive their own death and go to another realm. So, it's not that arrogant.

    That they are a god's favourite creation. Those who accept evolution are even more arrogant for thinking this. They understand that for millions of years, there were lifeforms without bodies, then lifeforms with bodies, which evolved for millions more years until modern mankind came on the scene 120,000 years or so ago. They know that dinosaurs existed much longer than them, they may even be aware that modern humans almost went extinct at one point. Yet they still feel that even though they're related to all species on the planet, their god likes them better. Even though it took billions of years to 'create' them.

    Are any of those other creatures of the past sentient? Do any of them concieve of the idea of God? We are special! It isn't arrogant if it's true!

    What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason! How infinite in faculty! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an angel! In apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world! The paragon of animals!

    Real humility is open to change. Arrogance is not. I could develop this further, but I'll leave it there for now.

    Many believers are open to change (some are not). It is arrogant to think that they must accept your particular "change" to be "humble". How can I not see this as anything other than arrogant?

    How can I not see this as anything other than arrogant?

    You're whole post is arrogant Sero! Pot, meet kettle!

    BurnTheShips

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith
    Many names for one God. Many faces.

    As an 'all paths lead to God' kinda guy, how do you feel about the contradictions between what some of these gods supposedly inspired?

    For example, the Bible says Jesus was the human form of God. The Koran says he was just a prophet. The Bible says Jesus is the way to salvation, Jews say God's son has never come to Earth. Did God inspire all these different religions, or is every religion an attempt to understand God which hasn't quite got it right? If it's the latter, why have you chosen the Bible's version of God over other versions, when it could be just as mistaken?

    Are any of those other creatures of the past sentient? Do any of them concieve of the idea of God? We are special! It isn't arrogant if it's true!

    I suppose it depends what you mean by sentient. I do believe other animals sense the world around them and understand they are alive in it, even if it's at a basic level. The human brain is part of our body which has become more 'advanced' than others animals, allowing us to use our imagination and think deeply about things. However it is still a body organ. The lion has better body organs than humans for ripping apart flesh. The dolphin has better body organs than humans for swimming. Bats are 'special' in that they can echo locate while we cannot. Even a snail would beat us in a 'walking up the wall' competition. In many ways, animals are better than us. Where we see brain power as being more important, they may see other animals (including us) as inferior to them. "Can any of these other animals run as fast as us? They try, but we're more advanced" a cheetah may think while chewing his prey. We approach it from a human perspective.

    It is arrogant to think that they must accept your particular "change" to be "humble". How can I not see this as anything other than arrogant?

    While you may feel differently, I feel my position regarding a god is as open minded and rational as can be. With no good reason to believe and faith being something most would not consider a virtue in most situations, (weak) atheism doesn't deny a god completely, waits for good reasons, but understands life may aswell continue as if there is no god with all we know so far.

    But even writing this thread isn't to force anyone to change. I would prefer people changed naturally after seeing both sides of the argument, and not base their beliefs on bad reasons, such as ignorance or wishful thinking. As far as my arrogance goes, I don't even say I'm 100% sure of my position. To be that sure would not allow change.

  • JK666
    JK666

    IMHO, most religious people are arrogant. Their worldview is the only correct one. If you don't believe in JE HEEZ USSS, you are damned. If you do not believe in Allah, you are damned and should be slaughtered. Etcetera, ad infinitum.

    I would much rather be ambivalent toward religion, live in peace, and respect all other points of view.

    JK

  • Shawn10538
    Shawn10538

    yup. religious types are arrogant mother fuckers. no doubt about it.

  • Shawn10538
    Shawn10538

    "Speaking for myself here, I don't think that only believers that will survive their own death and go to another realm. So, it's not that arrogant."

    Can anyone make sense of this sentence? It is an incomplete sentence/thought.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith
    Speaking for myself here, I don't think that only believers that will survive their own death and go to another realm. So, it's not that arrogant.

    It works if you cross of the extra 'that'. Looks like a small typo to me. I want to check it's not just a clever play on words though, so Burn, are you saying you believe non-believers could get into heaven, or do you believe they could survive their own death and get to another realm, except this other realm is just hell?

    To add to/amend the list:

    Some religious people may claim to know there is life after death. Regardless of who makes it to 'heaven' or 'hell' (assumptions about the nature of the afterlife) just believing there's a realm after death looks arrogant to me, especially since none of us know until we die

  • ninja
    ninja

    I'm the humblest person in the world

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