Dead Sea Scrolls published Jesus not There

by Satanus 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  bboyneko

  I might get attacked for this, but I can't wait to see christianity go the way of the dodo.
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  Yerusalyim

  Bboy,

  I've often thought you had a messiah complex.

  YERUSALYIM
  "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
  [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
• 

  Satanus

  Yeru

  According to the bible jesus told his desciples they wouldn't finish preaching to the jews until he came back. He said john would live to see his second advent.

  SS
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  accuracy

  What other things grabbed the attention of Josephus? For one thing, there was revolution and later a war going on. For another, Josephus was busy trying out the philosophies of the Essenes and the Pharisees.

  But by what logic do we believe that Josephus existed, and the Essenes existed, but that the man who has influenced life, civilization, religion, and philosophy more than they all, never existed? If Jesus never existed we must salute the anonymous genius who created his lofty teachings and his dedicated life.

  It is also unthinkable that the people of his time would trouble themselves to create someone who, in the Jewish and Roman world back then, would only cause trouble for them. Loyal Jews who believed in Jesus risked expulsion from the synagogue, and in fact, were expelled. Faithful Gentiles who believed in Jesus risked dishonor and death in the Arena, and in fact, were dishonored and put to death. Primitive Christianity was not a glamorous religion of the rich and famous. It was to great extent a religion of the poor -- In fact, "The Poor" was an early Christian title -- and the outcast. It called for a life of dedication and sacrifice. What was the altruistic and compelling spirit behind primitive Christianity if Jesus the Exemplar never existed?

  So then as today, the world takes note of what it wants to. So then as today, the real Jesus makes folk uncomfortable. So then as today, people would rather ignore him.

  "Precisely because Jews ask for signs and Greeks try to find wisdom, we go on proclaiming a Messiah executed on a stake as a criminal! To Jews this is an obstcle, and to Greeks it is nonsense; but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, this same Messiah is God's power and God's wisdom! For God's 'nonsense' is wiser than humanity's 'wisdom.'" -- 1 Corinthians 1:22-25 (David H. Stern, "Jewish New Testament")
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  Bang

  Josephus grew up with priests and high priests, the Jewish 'nobility' and 'royals'. What business would Josephus have had recording the events of a few poor people. Jesus got around with fishermen, publicans, prostitutes and the sick and poor - He is and was meek - just another Roman crucifixion to some.

  Bang
• 

  Satanus

  accuracy

  It depends how you look at it. True, it had humblle beginnings, although the scale of their persecution may be exaggerated.

  From the roman point of view, jesus' followers weakened tremendously the jews as a nation. Some people could take the view that christianity was the propaganda attack that softened up the jews in preparation for the finishing stroke in 70.

  After having matured, christianity was adopted as the official state religion. As such it served very well to perpetuate a fallen empire for at least another 1000 yrs. It crushed the variuos other religions and philosophues of the time. (ebionites, mithraism, asatra, manicheism, gnosticism, platonism, zerostrianism to name a few) Whole libraries of pagan philosophy were destryed or allowed to rot. What we know as the greek classics are lucky to have survived. Much of it only survived because it happened to be outside the christian realm, in arabia and persia. And so, some have concluded that jesus was an invention of a roman agent named paul.

  'real Jesus makes folk uncomfortable' He was portrayed as a revolutionary. Revolution always makes those in power uncomfortable. Yet, i think you are wrong in saying this, because a lot of people, while rejecting the bible and those who push it, still look up to the image of jesus. He taught some perrennial truths. These are also taught in the other main religions.

  SS
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  Satanus

  accuracy

  You said, '"The Poor" was an early Christian title -- and the outcast'
  Fundamentalism/revolution generally starts among the poor and oppressed. Muslim shiitism fundamentalism is a good example.

  Talibans are happy to give their lives for their cause. It does nothing to legitimize islam. Afghanistan is one of the poorest asian countries. So all the sacrifices of early fundamentalist christians really proves nothing.

  SS
• 

  JosephAlward

  Yeru says, "Jesus was just one of many itinerant preachers and miracle workers in Judea, why would he be mentioned when the others are not?"

  Why would Jesus be mentioned, if he really had fed 5,000 people with a handful of bread and fish, with leftovers aplenty, and then did the same thing later with 4,000 people? Why would he be mentioned when he--allegedly--actually did expel drive demons from the demoniac into a herd of pigs (Mark 5:1-21), and the people of the region found out about it and asked Jesus to leave the region?

  Well, these, and other “miracles” actually DID happen, if you can believe the Bible. The other “miracles” performed by the other “miracle workers” Yeru spoke of NEVER HAPPENED; at best, some people may have thought they witnessed miracles by other “miracle workers,” but we know they cannot have actually been miracles.

  The only miracles performed were those by Jesus, if you believe that God gave only Jesus the power to perform miracles. Thus, the other “miracles” must only have been rumors of miracles, not actual miracles; people heard about them, but they never saw any, really. However, the 9,000 at the two miraculous feedings surely knew a miracle had been wrought; they would have seen the bread and fish multiplied; this would have made a very strong impression on them, and with so many people having experienced this, no historian would have been able to ignore these events—if they had actually happened. The same can be said about Jesus driving the demons into the herd of pigs; the townspeople were so upset they asked Jesus to leave their area. This would have been such a high-profile event that no historian could have ignored it--if it had actually happened.
  
  Bang says that Josephus wouldn’t have bothered recording the “events of a few poor people,” but surely Bang doesn’t consider nine thousand people just a “few.” And what about the “few”—according to Bang—infants under the age of two years old Herod was alleged to have slaughtered in order to destroy Jesus? All of the children under age of two in the town of Bethlehem and its suburbs murdered, but yet too “few” for Josephus to care? That’s preposterous. Would Josephus have thought that this was an insignificant event in the life of Herod, if, as the Bible says, this actually happened? Of course not; Josephus recorded innumerable events in the life of Herod that were far more mundane than this one.

  Yeru also believes that the “apostles” didn’t write about Jesus sooner because they thought he would be returning so soon that they shouldn’t bother recording the events in his life before his ascension. That doesn’t make sense; why did Jesus tell his disciples to travel through the towns of Israel to spread the good word (Matthew 10:23) if his apostles wouldn’t even have time to write down anything?

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

  * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
• 

  tyydyy

  Joeseph,
  I love your reasoning on the children killed by Herod. I would think that any historian living at the time would have at least mentioned it.
  I would also think that God himself would want some corraborating evidence out there. How hard would it be for God to MAKE Joesephus write about Jesus in a comprehensive but objective way? For someone omnipotent it should have been a piece of cake. But then that's where faith comes in, right?

  TimB
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  accuracy

  If Jesus didn't exist, that would have been an excellent argument to make for those who wished to snuff Christianity out from the beginning. Strange that the Pharisees and their religious descendants, the rabbis of the Mishnah and Talmud, never made that argument, although they had plenty of other things to argue about with the growing Christian movement. The rabbis disputed that Jesus was the Messiah, and they disputed that he was resurrected, but they did not dispute his existence. What an opportunity they missed, if this were true!

  I would recommend the book _Jesus Within Judaism: New Light from Exciting Archaeological Discoveries_ by Professor James H. Charlesworth
  (Doubleday, 1988) It contains a particularly interesting discussion of the "Testimonium Flavianum," the Josephus statement about Jesus, including an Arabic version of that statement wherein "blatantly Christian passages in the Greek are missing." Comparing the Greek and Arabic versions, it is very likely that Josephus did mention Jesus: The Arabic version says: "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship." (page 95)

  Thus, it cannot be stated categorically that Josephus did not mention Jesus. But more importantly, the rabbis of the Mishnah and Talmud did do so, and they never once used the argument that the antagonistic sect of Christianity was based upon a lie because there was no Jesus.

  Further, using the same logic, we could argue that Josephus did not exist, since he is not mentioned in the New Testament, whereas non-Christian people, including even poets, are mentioned and quoted.

  I will have no more to say on this, since argument leads nowhere. People will believe what they want to believe, and I certainly believe in Jesus. There are those who deny the existence of Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon and everyone else they want to deny. But the existence of the Jewish people gives life to the myth, if it is such. Likewise, for me, regardless of those who deny the existence of Christ (and probably Peter and Paul, too), the existence of the Christian congregation gives life to the myth, if it is such.

  To each his own.