IP_SEC
Killer, pedos and the like, don't think they're "bad people" do they?
Without God then the bad people get away!
by easyreader1970 30 Replies latest jw friends
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funkyderek
Junction-Guy:
On the same token, without a belief in God, it would basically be no hold barred for me, I would seek out a plan for revenge, carefully execute it. Belief in God has basically held me back from doing more destructive things. Put it this way, if I had no belief in God and I knew I had a short time left on this earth, I would get revenge believe you me I would.
Then I'm glad you believe in a god! In your case the belief that a deity will torture your enemies for you prevents you from doing so. As for me, I would consider it unethical and demeaning to engage in such behaviour so, like you, I do not. The end result is the same so it doesn't matter how we get there, right? Well, my concern is that just because you are not a moral person and would behave abominably without belief in your god to hold you in check, you may assume that other people are the same and therefore that atheists are likely to do the sort of inhuman things that you wish to do but delegate to your god. Furthermore I am concerned that in so delegating your moral responsibilities you may be more inclined to allow injustice on the basis that your god will put things right in an afterlife.
But I suppose that's a small price to pay for something that prevents you being some sort of psychotic vigilante!
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Junction-Guy
But that is just it, without an ultimate authority, then who are you to tell me what I should think is ethical?
by the way you are totally off the map with your analogy, not everyone was raised as a JW, and not everyone has to deal with the baggage of being in a cult. If I were raised anything other than JW, I most likely wouldnt have the anger issues that I have dealt with, and then I wouldn't even be here, or even entertaining the idea of revenge or anything else.
I am a christian , and I am obliged by my belief system to treat others as I would like to be treated, however I am human, and when other people offend me, I am not above getting angry and hurt. I am not perfect and don't claim to be. I am just a sinner saved by grace. -
PrimateDave
From this atheist's perspective (me, that is) I am not a sinner, nor am I inherently flawed in any way. I am a self aware, multicellular entity that relies on various evolved patterns of survival that improve my fitness to exist and reproduce. If by being nice to you, I will improve my fitness for survival, then so be it. Call it morality if you like.
Being self aware, I recognize that I will die. I know that every individual living thing dies eventually, but that there is also a continuous, uninterrupted link between myself, between the trillions of individual cells in my body, and the very first lifeforms that evolved on this planet.
From competition for resources to cooperation to communication, life has evolved complex and adaptable ways to survive. Why that is so, I am in no position to answer. But here we are.
Humans have been especially successful in survival as of late, due in no small part to our abilities to cooperate and communicate. However, when individuals, tribes, or nations perceive a threat to survival (whether real or imagined), competition overrides cooperation. In other words, people suffer and die. Unfairly. Other forms of harm play themselves out due to uncountable imbalances in a system ever striving for equilibrium.
From these words, do not presume to put the cart before the horse. The winners often write the history books, and the excuses made for atrocities serve to exonerate or cover the basest motives of the victors after the fact. Why else do you think the Judeo-Christian god is so vengeful and bloodthirsty?
Dave (No God, Know Morality)
PS. Was it "unfair" for millions of the inhabitants of the American continents to die out at the time of European colonization? How does a god or gods figure in to that time period? Who were the "bad" people? -
easyreader1970
easyreader1970
Without God, what are "bad people"?
Without God, "bad people" are generally whatever the current local society deems unacceptable at the time. For instance, parents who beat their kids are considered by many to be bad people. A hundred years ago, you were considered bad and unfit if you didn't beat them. That was the main way of enforcing discipline. If you smack some kid around in a Walmart now, you will be spending the next couple of nights in jail.
Men and women who force female circumcision (called "genital mutilation" by opposers) on young girls are considered bad people by people who are from outside and "enlightened" societies. Some Western husbands are considered bad people by some people from eastern cultures because they allow their women to show skin and talk back to them. In some cultures, rape is okay if you're a female who has unfortunately caused yourself to be labeled as a viable target. Fornication before (forced and arranged) marriage? If you get raped, you deserve it.
This is the way cultural minds work. In some cases it doesn't work very well.
So basically the local culture/society puts a label on something (or someone) and they say, this is good and that is bad. It works even in the smallest of societies, families in a home. One father (the authority) labels eating in the living room as bad and anybody caught doing that is rebellious. In the house nextdoor, though, people eat in their living rooms all day long. But for them, leaving the toilet seat up is bad. That's oversimplifying it a bit, but essentially that is how we come up with our good and bad concepts.
The fact is that we have to have those to function as societies, large and small.
er
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funkyderek
Junction-Guy:
But that is just it, without an ultimate authority, then who are you to tell me what I should think is ethical?
So might makes right then? Whoever has the most power makes the rules? How is that ethical?
by the way you are totally off the map with your analogy,
Is this addressed to me? I don't believe I used an analogy. (Hard to know if you meant me as you didn't quote or address anyone directly.)
not everyone was raised as a JW, and not everyone has to deal with the baggage of being in a cult. If I were raised anything other than JW, I most likely wouldnt have the anger issues that I have dealt with, and then I wouldn't even be here, or even entertaining the idea of revenge or anything else.
OK, stating the obvious but it makes sense. If nobody had wronged you, you would not feel the desire for revenge.
I am a christian , and I am obliged by my belief system to treat others as I would like to be treated,
Wow! Obliged by your belief system? Again, I treat others as I would like to be treated because, well, because that's how I'd like to be treated.
however I am human, and when other people offend me, I am not above getting angry and hurt.
Nor should you be. It's a normal reaction. However, as a civilised human, you should be above plotting elaborate revenge on those who have offended you, even if you do it by proxy.
I am not perfect and don't claim to be. I am just a sinner saved by grace.
Unless of course your god chooses to resolve the injustices you have caused, i.e. if he does unto you as you wish he would do unto others. But you want "justice" for your enemies, and "grace" for you. Double standard, no?
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Terry
I take a big step back and look at it differently.
Nature. Let's start with Nature; the nature of things as they are.
Life is based on destruction so that the thing destroyed gives up its energy so that the thing which ate it can hijack that energy.
Living things eat other living things.
Nature. The game is rigged that way.
We don't tend to look at nature as Good or Evil unless we are being eaten (or a loved one has become food.)
So that is the FIRST THING I want you to think about. The nature of things is one of destruction and exchange. It is a given.
We are swarming with parasites on our body right now. Not a pleasant thought. Fortunately for our sanity, we can't see most of them.
I saw a bird get shot by a B-B gun when I was a kid and it fell to the ground. I ran over and stared, the way small children often do at death.
After the bird was dead for a minute or so, I was astonished to see hundreds of little parasites leaving the body! The sparrow was almost covered by tiny mites! They abandoned their host. It still shocks me to this day to think that bird was itching all the time.
Long, long before man was around millions and millions of years of dinosaurs occured. Armor plated, fanged, tusked, spiked, hostile creatures hunted and killed and ate. The vegetarians ate living plants and were eaten by the carnivores. Red in fang and claw was the nature of things.
Where was the Good or the Evil in that?
You see---our World View is so childish. We've been taught to view the nature of reality as a Disney story which bad guys spoil from time to time.
That isn't the true story of nature.
There is no Good and Evil except in our own social construction of how we WISH things could be.
We have, through our technology, made it possible to isolate ourselves from cradle to grave from as much raw nature as has ever been done.
We are sheltered from reality by living in a controlled (almost!) enviornment.
Truth is--when man strikes another man down in passion, greed or aberrant hostility--we are catching an unwanted glimpse of how things always were!
GOD is a construct we project up large into the night sky like the Bat signal. An extension of our own powerlessness in reverse. We WANT somebody in charge and so, we decide THERE IS somebody in charge.
Fact is, things have always gone the way they go. We are just better at creating a protective bubble now than in the past.
We believe our own propaganda and have soft underbellies that get a tickle of feeling when we have to face unpleasant things.
We create our own heaven or hell now and there is no final reckoning beyond that preparation or lack.
Time and unforeseen occurance befall us all.
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BFD
On the same token, without a belief in God, it would basically be no hold barred for me, I would seek out a plan for revenge, carefully execute it. Belief in God has basically held me back from doing more destructive things. Put it this way, if I had no belief in God and I knew I had a short time left on this earth, I would get revenge believe you me I would.
I guess you pray to your god to take care of your dirty work. You are a dangerous boy, JG. What would happen if your god gave you permission to exact revenge yourself? I believe this is how suicide bombers are born.
Get some help.
BFD
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IP_SEC
IP_SEC
Killer, pedos and the like, don't think they're "bad people" do they
I dont really care what they think.
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VoidEater
BFD: Aha! And there we go...without God, then we don't have the suicide bombers! Pretty succinct.
Deputy Dog: Without God, what are "bad people"?
I think with the tools of sympathy and empathy, we have a ready-made guide on how to tell "bad people". They cause harm. It is good to come to consensus on what constitutes harm and how to disallow it. Much better than what might be an arbitrary statement by a prophet that cannot be verified, IMO.
Killer, pedos and the like, don't think they're "bad people" do they?
Actually, they often do realize their "badness", though that doesn't stop them - but we're not going rely on their self-appraisal. We'll come to a consensus based on observable outcomes. Do we really need God to tell us that rape is bad? Can we not see the impact on the victim without a prophet?
LouBelle: How you treat others will dictate how others treat you.
Well said! You describe self-correcting system. If you don't like how you are being treated, that gives you a little info on how you might treat others.
Junction-Guy: But that is just it, without an ultimate authority, then who are you to tell me what I should think is ethical?
It's interesting to me that out of all the religious beliefs you could choose - many of which might support you in bloody acts of retribution - you have chosen one that guides you to act in a non-harming way.