by B_Deserter 145 Replies latest jw friends
Well, the study was honest about the skewed statistics for countries where information is suppressed by the government. However, notice the statistics for other countries around the world where it is OK to be open. 50% in Sweden. 80% in Vietnam. Other European and Western nations much higher than 10%. Quite an eye opener even if you exclude the info from communist countries.
Cog
To be fair, if we are going to exclude statistics from communist countries where religious freedom is suppressed, we should also exclude statistics from religious countries where freedom of religion is suppressed. For instance, in strict muslim countries, atheists could also hover around 10% but let's face it they are never going to admit it after what happend to Saloman Rushdie!
Cog
Cog, it's hard to estimate in those countries like you say. A person in N Korea would risk much if they claimed to believe in a god or gods. So I'm sure the % of those claiming atheism is high in those countries. The significant matter to me is that in general, atheists and agnostics tend to run below 10% of the population and as was pointed out, not all of them set hard in their beliefs. Humans are set apart from the animal kingdom in their inherent need for spirituality. Exept of course for those atheists who remain athiests throughout their lives.
Theists need to believe that there's a higher power that will help them overcome the evils that are in the earth. They know that they can't change mankind; so there has to be a God that will do this. It hard to start disbelieving in something that you were raised to believe in. I've went to colleges where most of the professors were atheist; and I went to colleges where most of the teachers were Catholic. I guess if I went to Utah, I'd find a college where everybody is, mostly, Mormons.
One can find stats that tell them what they want to know- Not what is. Everyone knows that in America, there is athiestic intolerance "In God We Trust" is printed on the money and when you salute the flag and say the national anthem God is included in that. This stuff is ingrained into your skull. To go against the grain is just not "normal". That's why many people dismiss Scientology. They don't believe in God either. What do you call them "athiest or theist"? What do you call Humanist? You can look at the name of a religion or other belief system to find out if people believe in God or not?
You don't need stats for that. Check out the "others" the non-theist (The non-comformist) philosophies. This should be more reliable info than a skewed statistic.
And most people don't go strutting around with their chest poked out saying that they are atheist or agnostic due to the backlash that goes with that stance; so many American stats on religion can be just as skewed as a Communistic statistic report.
That brings up another point many atheist don't return to Christianity. They may become , for instance, Buddhists or start believing in something totally different than what they formerly believed.
Humans are set apart from the animal kingdom in their inherent need for spirituality
I sincerely question the truth of this statement FHN. I know that we are taught this from childhood, not just by the WTBTS, but all religious upbringing has an element of this belief in it. The statistics would seem to back it up. However, there have been recent psychological studies that show humans tend to believe what they were taught first even when evidence to the contrary is provided later, people will cling to their original beliefs. This is not just true with relgious beliefs, but with all beliefs. The brain is resistant to changing it's neuro-cognitive patterns once they are set.
With religious upbringing, those patterns are usually set in early childhood and are the longest standing and most deeply entrenched beliefs, usually strongly tied in with survival needs. Children are dependent on their parents and their communities for survival, plus most religions have an element of "eternal survival depends upon belief in God" in them also.
So, the fact that 90% of all humans believe in God, is not proof positive that this need is inherent in humans. It could simply be evidence that 90% of humans have had belief in God, or a "need for spirituality" conditioned into their brains from early childhood.
The fact is, that in countries where this belief is not conditioned into all children from birth, they have much higher rates of atheism (ie: Sweden, Vietnam @ 50-80% rate of non-belief) would strongly suggest that this statement is not true. If it were "inherent" it should exhist at approximately the same rates, even in countries where belief in God was not taught to children.
Cog
Humans are set apart from the animal kingdom in their inherent need for spirituality.
There are many other features and abilities that humans have to a greater degree than do the animals. "Spirituality" is just one such feature.
Exept of course for those atheists who remain athiests throughout their lives.
So are you implying life-long atheists are not spiritual, or even on the same plane as animals? I don't get this.
"Spiritual" does not necessarily equate to believing in a deity. The dictionary defines it as incorporeal -- i.e., concerned with things that don't have a material form. From that definition, it should be obvious that even many atheists are spiritual, in that they know life is made up of more than material things. There are love, relationships, humor, sense of accomplishment -- all these can be considered spiritual, non-material things. The atheist's spirituality, though, does not extend to what he/she sees as a superstitious belief in a sky daddy.
It is false and insulting to imply that atheists are a form of life that can only appreciate material things (supposedly because we only "believe what we can see or for which there is proof").
The fact is, that in countries where this belief is not conditioned into all children from birth, they have much higher rates of atheism (ie: Sweden, Vietnam @ 50-80% rate of non-belief) would strongly suggest that this statement is not true. If it were "inherent" it should exhist at approximately the same rates, even in countries where belief in God was not taught to children.
I noted that your source for these statistics was a book written by atheists for atheists. Not a very reliable source. And your source linked to that pie chart, giving the estimates of atheism to be more like 8 % or less worldwide.
It is aparent in the most remote societies, such as the Bushman of southern Africa, that humans tend to be spiritual in nature and to make reference to god or gods and goddesses.
Gopher, your last post made very little sense. You invented a lot of complex meanings to simple statements I made. I don't think an atheist is more like an animal because he/she doesn't believe in God. And Gopher, if you don't believe in God. Do you believe you have no spirit? Do you believe there is not spiritual aspect to human beings or the animal kingdom? Then why are you worried about whether or not you are a materialist or not? And you brought that up, I didn't.
MsDucket, most of us do not care whether or not atheists return to christianity when they return to belief in a greater power. In the strictest sense, I never have believed in God quite like mainstream christians do. For me God is somewhere in between The Great Spirit of our family Native American heritage and the universalist God I knew from the earliest memories. I remember God before I could speak or even think in words. I remember God when all I could do was feel my thoughts. He was as real to me as an infant as he is now.
Most of you atheists are saying that, we who know there is a higher power, need for there to be a god. We could also say that you need for there not to be a god.
I don't feel that belief or disbelief is either one superior to the other. What does bother me is the sensativity on the board of atheists to anyone who isn't atheist or agnostic. I'm also bothered by the often condescending tone of the pro atheist posts and threads. On the other hand, I am just as bothered with fundamentalist lack of tolerance in the world.
So are you implying life-long atheists are not spiritual, or even on the same plane as animals? I don't get this.
No, I am not implying that you aren't on the same plane as animals. How ridicoulous of you to read that into my comments. If I wasn't so tired, I'd probably be smiling at that one. Your statement defensive to the point of being ludicrous.
It is false and insulting to imply that atheists are a form of life that can only appreciate material things (supposedly because we only "believe what we can see or for which there is proof").
Your whole statement here is false. No one implied that. If you are insulted, you are inventing things to be insulted about. Is this also something you learned from the Minnesota Atheists? Of course you can love and those things you mentioned. Love is an emotion, Gopher. It's a feeling. What are you trying to say? That I don't know you can feel emotions and have relationships and enjoy music or Immaterial things? What do you think I think, that you are robots? If you are insulted, Gopher, you are looking for reasons to feel insulted.
I find it rather interesting that you feel the need to defend that you are also spiritual.
I feel you are just like anyone else. You simply don't believe in a higher power or you don't believe it can proved there is one and you don't feel the need to communicate with the intelligent spirit world, because you're sure there isn't one. You say you have no need for any type of worship, no matter how simple. That is the only way you are different from me.
I noted that your source for these statistics was a book written by atheists for atheists. Not a very reliable source.
What makes a book written by an atheist an unreliable source? Perhaps you could point out how the methodology used in the study/survey was flawed using standard statistical analysis. To say it is flawed simply because it was written by an atheist is akin to saying the Bible is a totally unreliable source in regards to Christianity because it was written by Christians for Christians.
Cog
