I agree with you, Parkeet. Nobody with the education/intellectual development beyond that of a child would believe lliterally in the poetic mythos of Adam and Eve. Perhaps the people living 150 years ago accepted it, but today, the people who literally believe in Adam and Eve have been relegated to the fringes of society - fundamentalists and other morons. It's not even a question [as is commonly believed] of religion versus science. It is a question of one science [i.e. way of knowing] utterly defeating and replacing another primitive science, or way of knowing.
Hmmmn..Intresting Convo with my DAD last NIGHT
by dirtyknections 29 Replies latest jw experiences
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dirtyknections
Hey,
Part 2 will be up tomorrow..I just got back from my parents house and we had a very intense but constructive conversation...I need to pray and think over the things that were said so that I can post an accurate account of what happened...I don't want anybody saying i took what they said out of context..
real quick check my new post if you like that discusses why I believe in GOD...Hopefully, that gives you a better understanding into why I say some of the things I do
Suffice it to say tho...the "ish has hit the fan".. -
OnTheWayOut
"As I was walking, I saw a dog chase a cat across the road."
Low order question- What chased the cat across the road?"As I was walking, I saw a dog chase a cat across the road. Jehovah, through
his organization, promises that cats will not be persecuted beyond what they
can tolerate from dogs. If cats are faithful, Jehovah will reveal what He will do
for them after Armageddon. (some useless scriptural quotes that you will not
read are inserted here) Further, cats are not the only ones who will benefit from
God's cleansing of the earth of wicked dogs. All those who mindlessly obey
the WT organization can expect to live in Paradise after God's war at Armageddon
and live in mansions and pet lions and snakes, have plenty of picnics and see
dead loved ones again."Low order questions-
What chased the cat across the road?
What do the scriptures promise that Jehovah will do for faithful ones in the future?
Who will benefit from God's cleansing of the earth?
What benefits will those who mindlessly obey the WT organization receive?
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sir82
Jadon,
Apparently you are a better researcher than I am.
Certainly the use / misuse of blood is of key importance, would you not agree? It must be one of the most important areas in which JWs are "right all along".
Can you please point me to the scriptures that talk about "blood fractions"?
And why accepting the blood fraction known as "red blood cells" is on the highest order of sins against God himself, and anyone who receives a transfusion of it deserves eternal annihilation, but accepting the blood fraction known as "hemoglobin" is a "matter of conscience", and if one's conscience would allow a transfusion of it, carries no repercussions whatsoever?
Looking forward to learning from your 30 years' worth of research on this topic!
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Terry
I hate to be overly critical but the Watchtower and its adjoining publications , if used by themselves, are hardly suitable,to "teach". Because, of the inherent nature and form of the questions, if used by itself the Magazines and publications hardly do more than force the student to repeat the read info. Therefore, what you have is a group of people, who are nothing more than tape recorders. They record information and can play it back, but they do not fully understand what they have recorded.
What Jehovah's Witnesses (and Bible Students, Russellites before them) have always been are agents of opinion sent forth to create more agents of opinion. The Opinion is called by another name: THE TRUTH.
It would be entirely accurate to change this designation to THE OPINION (as in, "How long have you been in THE OPINION?") however, this would give the game away as merely human and in no wise
divine.Consequently, the Watchtower can only function persuasively by camouflaging opinion as divine wisdom channeled to them by Jehovah.
Pastor Russell put Studies in the Scriptures ABOVE the bible itself. For what reason? The Bible has no through-line; it is a pastiche. Pastor Russell created a storyline with a beginning, middle and end. His selling point was the END (date of Armageddon).
Rutherford, at first, used Russell and his pyramidology and creaky adventism and crackpot date-setting to advantage until 1925 demonstrated he was an ass. ("I made an ass of myself")
As your Father would no doubt recognize, this religion had to changed (was forced to change) because the bedrock idea it was based on was becoming demonstrably unstable (false dates). The blame was subtly placed on Russell and Pyramidology. Jehovah, you see, was refining the true relgion for a great work ahead!
The name change to Jehovah's Witnesses unfurled Rutherford's BRANDING of a lawyerly purpose for the membership: door to door dissemination of contrarian theology. Sort of: "Do this first and THEN the end will come" instead of: "The end is near--the end is near!"
In this shift of policy---Jehovah's Witnesses were made to feel organic to Armageddon as separators of sheep from goats.
Psychologically, adventist date-setting would attract certain personality types who went "against the grain" to begin with. This religious orthodoxy gave them a bully pulpit to strike back as contrarians.
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are largely contrarians who need a Big Stick to prove themselves right while making their point that EVERYBODY ELSE BUT THEM are wrong!
Calling this "I'm right and you're wrong and are going to DIE AT ARMAGEDDON unless you admit I'm right" religion is psychiatrically poised to appeal to people with inferiority complexes who have a deep-seated need to appear SUPERIOR!
The "teaching" aspect is impossible as Higher-Order learning because the membership has been robbed of Higher-Order rationality!
Obedience and Submission are the two most valued traits of a Jehovah's Witness.
The possibility of disambiguation by logical analysis is a THREAT and not a benefit!
If JW's could think for themselves in the first place---they would not need to place the iron yoke of FDS pronouncements on their necks.
So, in effect, they cannot be taught except by "inculcation" (literally beating into them).
"My way or the highway" is not so much an appeal to the intellect as a fear-mongering ploy to control.
As a teacher you can see all this clearly now. You train an animal by rewards and punishments. A JW doesn't teach so much as harness the mules and crack the whip with the promise of a bucket of oats at the end of it.
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golf2
As a professional golf instructor, "I teach students to teach themselves." The object is to think for yourself and not me thinking for you.
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Borgia
Jardon,
Whether or not the WTS is right or wrong....your analogy is flawed for at least 2 reasons:
1)your claim a research of considerable time.
2)and the outcome will save millions of lives.
@1)The WTS is now 130 years into the preachingwork and they have converted 0,1% of the worlds population which grows at a faster pace then they do. The current outcome is not the outcome of 50 years of intensive research. Russel has laid the foundation after a few years of discussion. The only thing that changes is the way the jW are kept in line and kept together.
@2)About that saving lives: we 're still waiting for that are we not? Maybe you will say: the same lame argument was used in Noah's days. And yes, maybe that is what really happened. But what also happened is that Noah did not do 50 years researching, preached 120 years and the outcome was he saved only 7 more than only himself. Why? because the only thing he had to say for himself was: God has spoken to me to built an ark so you can be rescued from the flood that's coming to destroy this wicked earth. Now that is to the heart and mind appealing. The JW have been crying wolf for God knows how long and none of their prophesies, sorry, applications have been justified. People are in need of being rescued from fantasies such as those through education, not propaganda.
Cheers
Borgia -
Borgia
Hi Dirtyknection,
Welcome to the board. Interesting topic.
Here's something I found about adult learning compared to adult learning within the WTS confines (blue).
Part of being an effective instructor involves understanding how adults learn best. Compared to children and teens, adults have special needs and requirements as learners. Despite the apparent truth, adult learning is a relatively new area of study. The field of adult learning was pioneered by Malcom Knowles. He identified the following characteristics of adult learners:* Adults are autonomous and self-directed. They need to be free to direct themselves. Their teachers must actively involve adult participants in the learning process and serve as facilitators for them. Specifically, they must get participants' perspectives about what topics to cover and let them work on projects that reflect their interests. They should allow the participants to assume responsibility for presentations and group leadership. They have to be sure to act as facilitators, guiding participants to their own knowledge rather than supplying them with facts. Finally, they must show participants how the class will help them reach their goals (e.g., via a personal goals sheet).
Not within the WTS you're not. They hate independent thinking and you need to learn to depend on the WTS to tell you what is goodness.And by the way: We are the FDS. We are the leadership. So don't you dare dreaming about the tail wagging the dog!
* Adults have accumulated a foundation of life experiences and knowledge that may include work-related activities, family responsibilities, and previous education. They need to connect learning to this knowledge/experience base. To help them do so, they should draw out participants' experience and knowledge which is relevant to the topic. They must relate theories and concepts to the participants and recognize the value of experience in learning.
Not within the WTS it's not. Only apostates claim to have more wisdom than the FDS. Just do as we tell you to and you will be part of the happiest people around!
* Adults are goal-oriented. Upon enrolling in a course, they usually know what goal they want to attain. They, therefore, appreciate an educational program that is organized and has clearly defined elements. Instructors must show participants how this class will help them attain their goals. This classification of goals and course objectives must be done early in the course.
O yes, by all means. But not your goals. Ofcourse you do not obey God to gain everlasting life or serve God for a specific time frame. You may cherish the idea but you will conform to the goals we will set for you. So, we'll tell you we'll show you how to do the presentations on the door. How to make reports, how to file your hourreport, how to participate on meetings and how to use FDS approved literature only.
* Adults are relevancy-oriented. They must see a reason for learning something. Learning has to be applicable to their work or other responsibilities to be of value to them. Therefore, instructors must identify objectives for adult participants before the course begins. This means, also, that theories and concepts must be related to a setting familiar to participants. This need can be fulfilled by letting participants choose projects that reflect their own interests.
The relevancy is: you just enroll with us in order to be saved. Of course you may choose your study project. We encourage you to do so and use the FDS approved literature only.
* Adults are practical, focusing on the aspects of a lesson most useful to them in their work. They may not be interested in knowledge for its own sake. Instructors must tell participants explicitly how the lesson will be useful to them on the job.
We encourage you to be practical. How to spent all your time in the preaching service. The last march will win in intensity! We'll also tell you how you can make contributions and what to do with your estate.
* As do all learners, adults need to be shown respect. Instructors must acknowledge the wealth of experiences that adult participants bring to the classroom. These adults should be treated as equals in experience and knowledge and allowed to voice their opinions freely in class.
Not within the WTS it's not. You show us you respect us. We are the FDS; appointed by JC himself over all his belongings and you are part of that belonging. We own you! You may have insights, talent, whatever. But we are the FDS. Only apostates claim that they are wiser than we
I jut could not resist
Cheers
Borgia -
dirtyknections
All i can say is...
AMEN!!!!!
To the replies in this post...
If you noticed my original post focused on not so much WHAT was being taught..but more the WAY it is being taught..
See here is the thing...I don't have a problem with what the WT teaches...they have the right to teach and believe what they want...I myself still attend the meetings, although I don't agree scriptually with a good portion of whats taught...
What I do have a problem with is the MEthod thats used to indoctrinate people...like some of you mentioned in the post..its a subtle but very effective form of psychological brainwash...I use this simile when describing it..
Its like a child who has questions about what color the sky is. He is seeking answers, so they put trust in his parents or whoever it is they feel comfortable with to give them the answer.
That person says, "Child..the sky is green..and you don't have to worry about wondering if it is indeed green..because I know the guy who created the sky and i talk to him personally all the time. Infact he told me that if anybody has questions about the sky they are to only ask me, because I am the only person in the world he has told what color the sky is" Now this child, because of his level of development, learns to seek guidance from only that source. He does this because he has been assured by that source of the authenticity of that sources message...he continues to rely on this source thru out his life because he has no reason to doubt that source of info...
herein lies the problem..
The child because of the percieved comfort that source gave him at the time of its crisis of conscience, Has instinctively learned to rely soley on that source for the answer to all questions. Therefore, in the process the child never fully learns to form its OWN opinion as to the color of the sky. It just says, "Hey my source of info, has never let me down, so when i have questions i will continue to go to that source of info...not to mention he KNOWS THE GUY WHO CREATED THE SKY"...
Lets do a quick analysis of my simile:
Child= honest hearted people seeking religious truth
The Sky= religious "truth"
Childs source of info= Gov Body/ FDS
And just like Pavlov's Dogs...ring the bell and their mouths will start to water.. -
Gordy
Jadon said:
So you see the dilemma, I challenged everything the JW's had to say and spent 30 yrs doing it just to find out they were right all along.
I spent 30 years as a JW then found that they were totally wrong.