McLellan book & the GOP reaction...chance to wake up JWs?

by sir82 17 Replies latest jw friends

  • Gopher
    Gopher
    If he wanted to release the book and blow the whistle, why didn't he do it around the time he was terminated rather than around an election cycle?

    It doesn't matter. What matters is that he said what he did, showing that even true believers in a certain monarchy/administration can change their minds and speak truth to power in a free society.

    If McLellan had spoken out while he was part of the administration or shortly thereafter, he would have been blasted by the neo-cons then too, maybe even to a larger extent. No matter WHEN he came out with this information, he would be blasted for disloyalty (which is the worst offense in GW Bush's version of America).

    True, earlier presidents had their tussles with Iraq. Bush 41 fought a limited war against Iraq, just to take Kuwait back. He had international support in that effort. Bush 43's hubris was in taking the 9/11 incident and turning it into an opportunity for a radical action of trying to bring democracy to a dangerous portion of the Middle East, at tremendous effort and cost. It was shortsighted (as opposed to earlier 'strike and get out' efforts from earlier administrations), and sold as an easy win to the American public. It's been over 5 years since the declaration of "mission accomplished" in Iraq, and American troops are still policing a dangerous civil war.

  • Carlos_Helms
    Carlos_Helms

    "Then exactly what would an "attack" look like? The neo-cons and conservatives are harshly criticizing McLellan and questioning his motives. The current White House press secretary all but called him a liar."

    Pearl Harbor? Geez...I don't know. Did they bomb his house? What's the difference between a "neo-con" and a conservative?

    "Then why don't they say it that way? Nobody has said that, they're saying he changed, implying he should have written a book full of warm fuzzies about the lot of them."

    They did say it exactly that way.

    "In the quotes I've seen from the book, I don't see Bush "hating" here. Unless someone calls disagreement with themselves "hatred". I know Bush treasures loyalty above all else -- if you're not "with" him you must be "against" him."

    I said George Soros is a Bush-hater, not author McClellan.

    "But which of the two administrations went in there, eschewing any diplomacy or futher sanctions (or any other options that could have been worked out), and tried to force democracy on an unwilling people there?"

    Hmm. I take it you've been there? ANYWAY...the reason I mentioned two distinct administrations possessing the same intel was to verify that there was indeed the same intel received over several years. I didn't make a value judgment on either. In reality, one admin chose not to act on the intel while the other acted on it. UN sanctions were rejected by Saddam's regime 17 times. Would an endless stream of rejected sanctions have been a better option?

    "Just like the administration had little doubt about so many things before the war (the war would be easily won, the WMD's were there, the people would welcome America as saviors, and wanted democracy)."

    I don't know what that has to do with the WMDs being moved to Syria, but OK...fair enough. I can give a reply to a political statement as well. The war WAS easily won, twice, in a matter of hours. Obviously, the "nation-building" isn't going as well as expected. With respect to democracy in Iraq...I refer to my favorite analogy of "giving an ape a hundred-dollar bill."

    Carlos

  • Carlos_Helms
    Carlos_Helms

    "It doesn't matter. What matters is that he said what he did, showing that even true believers in a certain monarchy/administration can change their minds and speak truth to power in a free society."

    You mean, it doesn't matter to YOU, Gopher. The fact that it is released at election time speaks to motive...which very much matters to ME and, from what I'm reading, ColdRedRain.

    IF (and I say "if" because I haven't read the book) McClellan did not have the security clearances necessary to access the inner-sanctum of Bush administration strategy sessions, then his evidence is circumstantial at best. In that case, the "shotgunning" of his thoughts and feelings on such matters at election time casts a serious shadow over the book's integrity, McClellan's intellectual honesty and his ethics. As classified information is discussed at presidential war-time strategy meetings; responses will of necessity be reserved and disseminated on a "need-to-know" basis. Basically, the administration is unable to respond in a manner that will satisfy the rabidly anti-Bush, media-dependent American public. So, you see, McClellan seems to be cutting a fat hog here. He can SAY what he wants and the predisposed are likely to believe, truth be damned. Obama and Clinton wasted little time jumping on the bandwagon. Anti-administration and agenda-driven liberal news sources have zeroed in on it. But due to the circumstances under which I perceive the book was written, I am unable to believe what I've heard from McClellan to date. No doubt, his royalty checks will beat unemployment.

    Carlos

  • Gregor
    Gregor

    Well, this McClellan book seems to have snufed out any chance Bush had of being re-elected in November. The Bush haters can relax.

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    LOL @ Gregor. And in a funny way, he makes my point about this:

    The fact that it is released at election time speaks to motive...which very much matters to ME

    Bush isn't up for re-election. The election will be between the Democratic nominee and McCain. Are you implying that because McLellan spoke out on his impressions of Bush, that he's somehow trying to sway people against McCain?

    I don't see how this book can have any significant impact on the November election. There's nothing really new in it (from what I've heard and read so far). Besides, the American public has overwhelmingly turned against the war in the last 3 years. This book turns no tides as regards the election.

    Did McLellan want to draw attention to himself, and make money? Sure. A lot of authors do. Nothing sinister there.

  • zugzwang
    zugzwang

    So much for this thread not turning political.

    It is ironic that, just like the mind of a Witness completely closes when you say something that is damaging to his world view, the mind of a conservative (or a liberal, or any other political persuasion) will also completely close when presented with facts that contradict one's view of the world. I think most of us see the parallel between the response of the Bush administration to McClellen's book and the way the Watchtower responds to attacks. Yet, Carlos_Helms felt the need to defend the Bush administration. I find that fascinating. It is similar to how liberals defended Clinton throughout the Lewinski affair. Their world view was that Clinton was a savior and could do no wrong. Even though the evidence was abundant that Clinton was not the greatest thing since sliced bread. Similarly, some defend Bush regardless of how obvious his failings are to most of us. As a former Witness who used to defend the Watchtower Society I try to be very careful not to fall into the trap of accepting one world view and believing that all others are wrong. I can see problems with both a liberal and a conservative world view. I don't think one philosophy works in all situations.

    I'm sure that both of you, Carlos and Gopher, are very intelligent individuals. But I think sometimes each of you, and myself, and really all of us, we fall back into that trap of defending a world view that we believe to be the truth and we become completely blind to reality (or the possibility that there is another way to look at reality). The fact is the Bush administration did attack the messenger. Which isn't surprising. Every administration gets defensive about their record and tries their best to shape the way history will record their time in office. Defending the administration or questioning the motives of the messenger doesn't change the facts. And that applies whether it is a Republican in office or a Democrat.

    Sir82, good topic, I have observed how similar the Bush administration is to the Watchtower Society for quite some time. This is the first administration that has been in office since I started really paying attention to politics. I was still a Witness during the Clinton administration. So I didn't pay that close attention to how he behaved in office. (As a Witness I pretty much assumed that Clinton, like all politicians, was evil.) So it will be interesting for me to observe the next president to see whether the next administration is like the Bush administration and also like the Watchtower Society in the way they try to control the flow of information and how they try to quash dissent and demonize anyone who disagrees with them and how they try to create an "us versus them" mentality. I hope that won't be the case. Otherwise I may have to write off politics as well.

    zugz

  • SirNose586
    SirNose586

    It's a good comparison, but unfortunately, the witnesses don't watch the news. It'll go over their heads.

  • Carlos_Helms
    Carlos_Helms

    I apologize for helping to politicize it.

    I think the original theory posted by Sir82 is a valid one as long as it's apples we're comparing apples to. Truth must be the common thread...and I have serious doubts about the validity of McClellan's accusations.

    My apologies for the hijack.


    Carlos

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