How can a Bible believer join the military?

by Open mind 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Open mind
    Open mind

    When I was a true-blue-believing-JW I always thought that my ace in the hole was the Neutrality Issue.

    If you're a JW and you're losing an argument on Trinity or Blood or Hell you can always try to change the subject and zero in on how JW's are the ONLY MAJOR RELIGION that takes a strong stand against joining the military. (I know there are other pacifist churches, but not many.)

    What scriptural arguments can you give that justify joining the armed forces?

    Here's the ones I already know:

    1. Cornelius wasn't told to quit the military and there's no record that he did.

    2. When Jesus said "He who lives by the sword, will die by the sword", he wasn't condemning warfare, he was just pointing out an occupational hazard. (As a dubbie, this argument always made me chuckle. I thought it was weak.)

    3. We're allowed to protect our families. With the evolution of society into nation-states, warfare is just the logical extension of that. (oops, that wasn't really scriptural.)

    Any other Bible-based reasons that it's OK to join the military?

    om

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly

    just go the local Armed Forces office and sign up. If a guy (or gal) was a bona-fide pacifist I think the military would find a non-combat MOS for them to serve in...

    all your points are good. As a JW I never could totally wrap my head around their version of neutrality and ideas about military-govt service.

    It took me awhile to figure out the JW are not neutral or pacifist. They are just odd and need to make an issue to get persecuted over. Their stand on alternative service (at least in the USA) never held water for me.

    Jeff

  • Terry
    Terry

    The fundamental premise of Christianity is BE LIKE CHRIST.

    What Jesus Christ taught is either practical, true and perfect or it is silly and impractical and nonsensical.

    Christians quickly discovered which was the case long long ago!

    You would actually have to trust God to protect you in order to love your enemies and turn the other cheek!

    The monks who passively accepted the Communist armies into Tibet were slaughtered like pigs in the street!

    That's more like Jesus than any Christian is willing to practice as to walking the walk to match the talk!

    Conforming to Jesus' example is an invitation to annhilation for any large group of people who refuse to protect themselves.

    End of story.

    Only lip service and a parsing of reasons can be made trying to link Jesus with war, killing or self-defense.

    Chalk and Cheese.

    Jesus' preaching was what got him killed. You too can be killed or imprisoned (like I was) for practicing such a philosophy.

    The proof (test) of any philosophy is how it plays out in the real world. The fact that Jesus was scourged, tortured and died is evident. The assertion he was raised from the dead is undemonstrable. If it didn't happen---Christians are wasting their time.

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly

    Terry... I know several JW folks your age... you guys got screwed the worst way.

    Hill

  • Open mind
    Open mind

    hillbilly:

    If a guy (or gal) was a bona-fide pacifist I think the military would find a non-combat MOS for them to serve in...

    Depends on the country I'm sure. Does the U.S. allow this right now?

    It took me awhile to figure out the JW are not neutral or pacifist.

    Care to elaborate? I know there are a few exceptions that are common knowledge on JWD. (Rand Cam stock, Rutherford's early letter to Hitler, allowing Mexican JWs to purchase the cartilla.) But on the whole, I think JWs are neutral and pacifist. Certainly when compared to many other churches. It's an issue that I think the JWs can fairly legitimately use to show they are different and "better" than churches in general. Provided you buy into the premise that neutral and pacifist is what Christians are supposed to be.

    Terry:

    Good points. So are you of the opinion that Jesus philosophy was that people should be pacifist?

    I think that's what he taught too. I don't personally agree with that now, but I think that's what he taught.

    So how do we explain Cornelius?

    Maybe he did quit the military and it just wasn't recorded?

    om

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly

    About the pacifists thing? I was old enough to have almost made the draft ... and they guys older than me who had to talk to the board were always told to never, never say anything about there being a "just war" or justification of killing. Every JW will tell you that all the OT wars fought by Isreal and The Great Battle ahead are God backed and justified.

    JW's would kill in a minute if the GB at Brooklyn told them to.

    I have not spoken with a recruiter in a while... but with quotas down and retention being what it is I would be confident that a qualifed pacifist could find a Non Combative job in the service these days. It happened in WWII and Veitnam... and that was with a draft on.

    Hill

  • blondie
    blondie

    Actually the WTS splits hairs and says they do not consider themselves pacificists. Also consider that Israel had a standing army that even slaughtered women and children.

    *** g97 5/8 pp. 22-23 The Bible’s Viewpoint: Should Christians Be Pacifists?

    "The churches should become pacifist again as they were in the first centuries of Christianity."—Hubert Butler, Irish writer.

    AFTER a visit to Yugoslavia following World War II, Hubert Butler daringly penned the above words in an essay written in 1947 but not published until just last year! He was shocked at how "the Christian Church during the war connived at unspeakable crimes and departed very far from the teaching of Christ."

    Butler was not afraid to speak out for unpopular causes or groups. When he did, he generally spoke alone. He expressed himself without fear when he contrasted the churches’ behavior with the courageous stance of Jehovah’s Witnesses, who were described in TheIrishTimes as "surely the most innocent and blamelessly apolitical religious sect of all." In his essay, "Report on Yugoslavia," Butler wrote that the Witnesses, who "reject[ed] all the sophistries by which war is justified by leaders in political and religious life," were put on trial by the Yugoslav authorities for their refusal to join the war movement.

    Is it Scripturally correct, however, to describe Jehovah’s Witnesses as pacifists? To clarify the matter, it may depend on what is meant by the word "pacifist." Butler used the term to commend the Witnesses for their bravery in refusing, at great personal cost, to take up arms in warfare. Sadly, though, many people who are caught up in the fever of war see a pacifist only as "a coward or a traitor, who [is] anxious to shirk his responsibility to his nation." Is that viewpoint correct?

    Opposition

    toWarorViolence

    Webster’s

    NinthNewCollegiateDictionary says that a pacifist is someone who is "strongly and actively opposed to conflict and esp[ecially] war." It defines "pacifism" as "opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes; specif[ically]: refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds." How would these definitions apply to the believers of the early Christian congregation?

    They did ‘refuse to bear arms on moral and religious grounds’ and avoided all ‘conflict and war.’ Why? Because they knew that Jesus had said that his followers were "no part of the world" and that "all those who take the sword will perish by the sword." (John 15:19; Matthew 26:52) In TheEarlyChurchandtheWorld, one historian tells us that "up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least [161-180 C.E.], no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism." In TheNewWorld’sFoundationsintheOld, another says: "The first Christians thought it was wrong to fight, and would not serve in the army even when the Empire needed soldiers."

    The Christians’ commission was to preach the good news. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20) They understood that they had no commission from God to wage war against his enemies, to act as God’s executioners, as it were. (Matthew 5:9; Romans 12:17-21) Only when so-called Christians ‘depart far from the teaching of Christ,’ as Butler stated, do they get enmeshed in the wars of the nations. Then the clergy bless armies and pray for victory, often on both sides of a conflict. (Compare John 17:16; 18:36.) In past centuries, for example, Protestants and Catholics fought many bloody wars, resulting in "the horrors that [descended] on Western Europe, both sides proclaiming themselves as the instruments of God’s wrath," writes Kenneth Clark in his book Civilisation. The arguments made to justify this kind of warfare, says McClintock and Strong’s CyclopediaofBiblical,Theological,andEcclesiasticalLiterature, "have evidently grown out of a desire to conciliate the civil power, and are clearly opposed to the ancient Christian doctrine and to the whole spirit of the Gospel."—James 4:4.

    Totally

    OpposedtoWar?

    Were ‘the ancient Christian doctrine and the whole spirit of the Gospel’ really pacifist, however? Could early Christians truly be described as pacifists, as defined previously? No! Why not? For one thing, they recognizedGod’srighttowagewar. (Exodus 14:13, 14; 15:1-4; Joshua 10:14; Isaiah 30:30-32) Besides that, they never disputed God’s right to authorize ancient Israel to fight for him when that nation served as his sole instrument on earth.—Psalm 144:1; Acts 7:45; Hebrews 11:32-34.

    God has not only a right but also an obligation on the basis of justice to remove wicked people from the earth. Many evildoers will never respond to God’s patient appeals to them to mend their ways. (Isaiah 45:22; Matthew 7:13, 14) God’s toleration of evil has limits. (Isaiah 61:2; Acts 17:30) Christians, therefore, recognize that in the end God will forcibly remove evil people from the earth. (2 Peter 3:9, 10) As the Bible foretells, this will be at "the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus."—2 Thessalonians 1:6-9.

    The last book of the Bible describes this conflict as "thewarofthegreatdayofGodtheAlmighty," or Armageddon. (Revelation 16:14, 16) It says that Jesus Christ will take the lead in this, that he "carriesonwarinrighteousness." (Revelation 19:11, 14, 15) Jesus Christ is rightly called the "Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6) But he is not a pacifist. He has already fought a war in heaven to clear it of all God’s rebellious enemies. (Revelation 12:7-9) Soon he will fight another war "to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." However, his followers on earth will take no part in that divine judgment.—Revelation 11:17, 18.

    True Christians love peace. They stay completely neutral in the world’s military, political, and ethnic conflicts. But, strictly speaking, they are not pacifists. Why? Because they welcome God’s war that will finally enforce his will on earth—a war that will settle the great issue of universal sovereignty and rid the earth of all enemies of peace once and for all.—Jeremiah 25:31-33; Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10.[

  • Terry
    Terry
    Terry... I know several JW folks your age... you guys got screwed the worst way.

    There was an inmate who tried to screw me in the worst way!

    But, I get your point.

    It was such poor reasoning given to me by the Congregation Overseer and his assistant that I can't respect myself for not asking for clarification.

    The tipoff was that I could "...tell nobody I had been instructed to act in this fashion."

    Umm hmmm.

    That's what put Rutherford and the guys in Federal Prison back in the post-Russell fiasco! They instructed people not to serve!

  • Terry
    Terry

    Terry:

    Good points. So are you of the opinion that Jesus philosophy was that people should be pacifist?

    I think that's what he taught too. I don't personally agree with that now, but I think that's what he taught.

    So how do we explain Cornelius?

    Maybe he did quit the military and it just wasn't recorded?

    In the Ancient World and in in the Roman empire, a person's religion was personal to them and their region with a "live and let live" respect for everbody's opinion.

    Christians, you'll recall, were called "Atheist" because they DENIED other people's God!

    The Romans allowed Jews---out of respect for the ancient nature of their religion--to not serve in the military. This was respect. But, Christians had no "ancient" aspect to their belief at all!! They were required to demonstrate the same loyalty to the emperor that all other religions were expected to express by pinching incense into the fire. Christians refused.

    The Christians were not completely of ONE MIND on beliefs or practices. Paul makes this clear. Paul talks about things he "knew" he could do that wasn't a sin---but MIGHT BE VIEWED---otherwise by "weaker" Christians. In other words: different people believed different things.

    The pressure from Jews and Jewish Christians toward Paul was to respect the Law. Paul's argument was that it was Gentiles (under the Noachian Covenant) who should be exempted from circumcision. Additionally, he relaxed the application of the LAW as applied to pagans for membership without seeking to obliterate its covenant with natural Jews.

    I think there was so much disharmony, opinion, controversy and argument in the first 300 years of "Christianity" we don't have any clear picture of a UNITED ORTHODOXY until the power of the Roman Emperor decreed it to be so, starting in 325 C.E.

    Christianity was a mixed bag in every way!!

  • Witness 007
    Witness 007

    I think nuetrality is the only good Witness thing...war is crap!...todays enemies are tommorrows best friends...too bad if your dead though huh..as the bible says "give peace a chance...all you need is love...make love not war"..............dont remember what verse.

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