Why we must obey the F&DS - according to this "brother" (page 4)

LovesDubs

Wow...GREAT reply Bud! And Jer...dude...excellent. Im so proud to be associated with such brilliant LOGICAL reasonable thinkers! you guys rock! Ima steal those too!!

SirNose586

Good points, bud. I've saved your response for any future need.

"Do you have the faith to follow the direction of the faithful and discreet slave in these last days even if you don't understand what they are asking and it seems as if you will die because the direction is illogical?

It seems that many have had this faith.

Just think of the ones that believed the WTS when they said vaccinations were like taking pus into the body. Wonder how many children had to pay for that "confusion" with serious illness or death?

How about the "taking organ transplants is like cannibalism?" Again, how many "jumped" when the FDS pronounced this and died, only to have the teaching "clarified" later as the WTS bactracked and it was now deemed an acceptable medical procedure?

On to 1975. How many sold their homes and businesses or quit work to pioneer in the "remaining months of this system of things" only to later find out they were "running ahead of the organization" to have done this?

The example could go on and on but do demonstrate that by putting complete trust in the FDS class and explicitely following their "illogical directions" while "wandering around in the desert with them," and "jumping when they say to" doesn't always turn out to our benefit.

freetosee

!!

fts

Witness 007

"Thank you Brother Daivd Koresh for that wonderful talk, now a song, and then Brother Jim Jones will lead us in the Watchtower study.....remember Brothers "refreshments" will be served after the meeting."

Olin Moyles Ghost

I've got to bump this thread. Excellent response by bud. Any reply by the JW who sent the original email?

chickpea

thanks for the bump, OM

I missed it first time around
and this one is definitely a keeper!

Farkel

My reply would be, er, a bit less subtle:

:"...do you realize that in the Bible there are many instances of situations where Jehovah's people were given directions that made no sense from a human standpoint and seemed totally illogical?

Yes, I realize that because from ANY standpoint they are not just totally illogical, but totally idiotic.

: For instance - Abraham sacrificing Isaac

Thank you. You just proved my point. If God knew that Abraham would obey his command and sacrifice Isaac, then why did he ask him to do it in the first place? What would be the point? If God did NOT know if Abraham would do that or not, then God ain't too bright or all-knowing. What kind of a parent would "test" his own children by telling them to go out and murder someone? So God made a command and then broke his own command at the same time Isaac was sitting on the altar with a knife over his body and shitting his pants. I'm sure THAT was a warm and fuzzy moment that Isaac would fondly recall the rest of his life. And imagine how Abraham felt when he was told to do it.

: Noah building an ark when there had never been rain

That would be fine and dandy if there had never been rain, but there's this stickly little problem call the "sun" and another stickly little problem the "sun" does to water. It's called "evaporation." And all that "evaporation" had been going on for millenia before Noah showed up. Where did all that evaporated water go? Did God have some huge vaccuum cleaner and suck it out of the atmosphere when the atmosphere became super-saturated? I guess so.

: Moses having the Israelites march out in battle formation and then marching back in the direction they left. Pharaoh thought they were crazy and then Moses led them to the Red Sea; Pharaoh thought he could kill them all as their backs were against the wall (sea).

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. God had just screwed up the Egyptians with 10 miraculous plauges and the Israelites didn't have to do squat about that. Any decent God would have just shot Pharoah after he still stubbornly went after the Israelites, but NO! He made the Israelites march around stupidly, and then killed not only Pharoah, but all his soldiers who were just following orders and probably didn't want to be their in the first place: lots of those guys lost their first-born sons in the 10th plague and were probably scared shitless of the Israelite God. Imagine all the poor little fish that got screwed up when God parted zillions of gallons of water and then made it all come crashing down, when God could have simply shot Pharoah and ended the whole problem then and there.

: Also Gideon; his army was whittled down to 300 men. With torches and jars they went out to defeat the enemy.

Gideon was an idiot. Why torches and jars? How about peanut butter sandwiches? They could have beat the enemy to death with their sandwiches. Now THAT would have been a nifty miracle!

: And what about Jericho; for six days they marched around the city once and on the seventh day they marched seven times and then shouted.

Sounds like a lot of work for a "miracle-making" God. Sonic destruction! God could have tossed Joshua a hundred pounds of C4 and some dentonators and said, "here place these around the wall. This will REALLY scare the shit out of them. But no, God didn't do that. God makes man do everything the hard way before he does any miracles.

:Then there was Jehoshophat who was afraid when the Ammonites and others were coming to annihilate them. He prayed, and Jehovah said put the singers and women and children in front of the armed forces and go and meet the enemy!

Yeah, here's another good example: fucking up innocent people for no good reason. A bunch of Ammonites are coming to annihilate the Israelites and all the Israelites know it. God says, "hey ladies and kiddes. I want you to all get in FRONT of the Army and start marching. Trust me! hahahahahahahahahaha! Talk about underwear-changing time for those poor ladies and kids!

: All of these situations were Jehovah's direction but they seemed foolish, illogical from a human standpoint.

No, they didn't "seem" foolish. They WERE idiotic and totally illogical given the unlimited power of BibleGod(tm).

: It seemed each time as if they would be killed."

I'm sure they wished they were dead when God told them what they had to do.

:Then the brother asked these questions: "Do you have the faith to follow the direction of the faithful and discreet slave in these last days even if you don't understand what they are asking and it seems as if you will die because the direction is illogical?

Well, brother. You have set up a classic strawman argument: God ordered his people to do stupid and illogical things. Therefore, if the FDS which is composed of puny humans who are more stupid and idiotic than God because they are human, order you to do stupid and idiotic things, do you have the faith to do them?

I don't.

: Will you quickly obey and trust the channel Jehovah is using?"

Not in this or any other lifetime. If your God is so stupid and idiotic, you could hardly expect me to trust any human "channel" he selects.

Now where is that C4 and those detonators?

Farkel

OnTheWayOut

As to the modern day "faithful and discreet slave" (governing body) - their record shows absolutely no such evidence that Jehovah is using them. Not only have their many predictions not come true, but they have been repeatedly guilty of "going beyond what is written" in making such predictions. Furthermore, instead of accepting responsibility for such failures, they have either blamed the rank- and-file for making false assumptions (eg. 1975), resorted to outright deception by falsifying their own history (eg. 1914), or when out of all other options, repeatedly flip-flopped on doctrines while claiming that God has given them "new light" (eg. generation doctrine).

That's an outstanding answer. I think it's great as is.

The "channel" must first demonstrate that it is the channel and not a false prophet.
The self-proclaimed "faithful and discreet slave" has never shown itself to be discreet.

Why we must obey the F&DS - according to this "brother"