...and archaeologists. Saw awhile ago on a post about historically uncovered evidence of times and kingdoms past...and it was mentioned there are NO dates in the Bible. OK, I'm little slow, but any interrupted date dub have depends on these bonediggers a lot. And now I can't wait til my next discussion about things with my elder/dad. What gives WT the right to accept some historical evidence and ignore other historical evidence found by the same people??????......Spoke to an active dub last night about it and he immediatly agreed this did not seem fair and balanced...........oompa
nevr realized 1914 depends totally upon worldly historians...
by oompa 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
Hope4Others
Just because of that I'm trying to read "Gentile Times Reconsidered" I'm making so much progress.....I'm on page 3......tee hee hee
It's gonna be a long read.
hope4others
-
TD
Yes
Here's a question for your father:
"When you accept the conclusions of secular archaeologists and historians, don't you also accept the data and methods which they have used to arrive at those conclusions?"
-
garybuss
Everything the Society writes comes from "worldly" sources. I even heard the Society has a special card so they can get worldly information directly from the United Nations to print in the Watchtower magazine.
Check out my article "New Light from Old Books and Dead Opposers"on Freeminds.In support of their recent Biblical interpretation change concerning "this generation" (Matt. 24:34), the Governing Body (hereafter GB) of Jehovah's Witnesses submitted four documents. (Watchtower, 11/1/95, p. 12)
Those were:
1. Walter Bauer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.
2. W.E. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.
3. J.H. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.
4. The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (1964), edited by Gerhard Kittle. -
tfjw
Great stuff Gary, thanks for the link.
-
GramblingMan
You know I went round and round with a JW visiting my home about, accepting information from worldly historians, but rejecting them when it doesn't fit JW way of thinking.
For the life of him, he either couldn't or wouldn't accept the fact that if accepts one date, then he would have to also accept the other dates. He would then say well the JW use their own calculations and I would counter from where there are no dates in the bible to confirm 607. -
oompa
a very intelligent poster here pm'd me this and aske me to post it....I do not know why they can not post it....but here it is and ya...it is very interesting:
I can't post on your thread.... Message I'm trying to say: Maybe you can post for me: Check out this quote from the trusty ole insight book:
*** it-1 p. 453 Chronology ***
A Babylonian clay tablet is helpful for connecting Babylonian chronology with Biblical chronology. This tablet contains the following astronomical information for the seventh year of Cambyses II son of Cyrus II: “Year 7, Tammuz, night of the 14th, 1 2/3 double hours [three hours and twenty minutes] after night came, a lunar eclipse; visible in its full course; it reached over the northern half disc [of the moon]. Tebet, night of the 14th, two and a half double hours [five hours] at night before morning [in the latter part of the night], the disc of the moon was eclipsed; the whole course visible; over the southern and northern part the eclipse reached.” (Inschriften von Cambyses, König von Babylon, by J. N. Strassmaier, Leipzig, 1890, No. 400, lines 45-48; Sternkunde und Sterndienst in Babel, by F. X. Kugler, Münster, 1907, Vol. I, pp. 70, 71) These two lunar eclipses can evidently be identified with the lunar eclipses that were visible at Babylon on July 16, 523 B.C.E., and on January 10, 522 B.C.E. (Oppolzer’s Canon of Eclipses, translated by O. Gingerich, 1962, p. 335) Thus, this tablet establishes the seventh year of Cambyses II as beginning in the spring of 523 B.C.E. This is an astronomically confirmed date.
Since the seventh year of Cambyses II began in spring of 523 B.C.E., his first year of rule was 529 B.C.E. and his accession year, and the last year of Cyrus II as king of Babylon, was 530 B.C.E. The latest tablet dated in the reign of Cyrus II is from the 5th month, 23rd day of his 9th year. (Babylonian Chronology, 626 B.C.–A.D. 75, by R. Parker and W. Dubberstein, 1971, p. 14) As the ninth year of Cyrus II as king of Babylon was 530 B.C.E., his first year according to that reckoning was 538 B.C.E. and his accession year was 539 B.C.E
The same chronology that establishes 539 is also the one that establishes 587. But that is rejected. Hmmmm... reading the next page it says:
*** it-1 p. 454 Chronology ***
Astronomical Calculations. The claim is made that “astronomical confirmations can convert a relative chronology [one that merely establishes the sequence of events] into an absolute chronology, specifically, a system of dates related to our calendar.” (The Old Testament World, by Martin Noth, 1966, p. 272) While the celestial bodies are the means provided by man’s Creator for human measurement of time, nevertheless the correlation of astronomical data with human events in the past is subject to various factors and human interpretation allowing for error.
So they say they can't really claim a absolute date, can they. Or can they?
*** si pp. 282-283 pars. 27-28 Study Number 2—Time and the Holy Scriptures ***
27 Pivotal Dates. Reliable Bible chronology is based on certain pivotal dates. A pivotal date is a calendar date in history that has a sound basis for acceptance and that corresponds to a specific event recorded in the Bible. It can then be used as the starting point from which a series of Bible events can be located on the calendar with certainty. Once this pivotal point is fixed, calculations forward or backward from this date are made from accurate records in the Bible itself, such as the stated life spans of people or the duration of the reigns of kings. Thus, starting from a pegged point, we can use the reliable internal chronology of the Bible itself in dating many Bible events.
28 Pivotal Date for the Hebrew Scriptures. A prominent event recorded both in the Bible and in secular history is the overthrow of the city of Babylon by the Medes and Persians under Cyrus. The Bible records this event at Daniel 5:30. Various historical sources (including Diodorus, Africanus, Eusebius, Ptolemy, and the Babylonian tablets) support 539 B.C.E. as the year for the overthrow of Babylon by Cyrus. The Nabonidus Chronicle gives the month and day of the city’s fall (the year is missing). Secular chronologers have thus set the date for the fall of Babylon as October 11, 539 B.C.E., according to the Julian calendar, or October 5 by the Gregorian calendar.
They are their own worst enemies.. aren't they? We apostates don't even have to add a word... -
Awakened at Gilead
Worked now...mustve been my job computer...
Check out this quote from the trusty ole insight book:
*** it-1 p. 453 Chronology ***
A Babylonian clay tablet is helpful for connecting Babylonian chronology with Biblical chronology. This tablet contains the following astronomical information for the seventh year of Cambyses II son of Cyrus II: “Year 7, Tammuz, night of the 14th, 1 2/3 double hours [three hours and twenty minutes] after night came, a lunar eclipse; visible in its full course; it reached over the northern half disc [of the moon]. Tebet, night of the 14th, two and a half double hours [five hours] at night before morning [in the latter part of the night], the disc of the moon was eclipsed; the whole course visible; over the southern and northern part the eclipse reached.” (Inschriften von Cambyses, König von Babylon, by J. N. Strassmaier, Leipzig, 1890, No. 400, lines 45-48; Sternkunde und Sterndienst in Babel, by F. X. Kugler, Münster, 1907, Vol. I, pp. 70, 71) These two lunar eclipses can evidently be identified with the lunar eclipses that were visible at Babylon on July 16, 523 B.C.E., and on January 10, 522 B.C.E. (Oppolzer’s Canon of Eclipses, translated by O. Gingerich, 1962, p. 335) Thus, this tablet establishes the seventh year of Cambyses II as beginning in the spring of 523 B.C.E. This is an astronomically confirmed date.
Since the seventh year of Cambyses II began in spring of 523 B.C.E., his first year of rule was 529 B.C.E. and his accession year, and the last year of Cyrus II as king of Babylon, was 530 B.C.E. The latest tablet dated in the reign of Cyrus II is from the 5th month, 23rd day of his 9th year. (Babylonian Chronology, 626 B.C.–A.D. 75, by R. Parker and W. Dubberstein, 1971, p. 14) As the ninth year of Cyrus II as king of Babylon was 530 B.C.E., his first year according to that reckoning was 538 B.C.E. and his accession year was 539 B.C.E
The same chronology that establishes 539 is also the one that establishes 587. But that is rejected. Hmmmm... reading the next page it says:*** it-1 p. 454 Chronology ***
Astronomical Calculations. The claim is made that “astronomical confirmations can convert a relative chronology [one that merely establishes the sequence of events] into an absolute chronology, specifically, a system of dates related to our calendar.” (The Old Testament World, by Martin Noth, 1966, p. 272) While the celestial bodies are the means provided by man’s Creator for human measurement of time, nevertheless the correlation of astronomical data with human events in the past is subject to various factors and human interpretation allowing for error.
So they say they can't really claim a absolute date, can they. Or can they?*** si pp. 282-283 pars. 27-28 Study Number 2—Time and the Holy Scriptures ***
27 Pivotal Dates. Reliable Bible chronology is based on certain pivotal dates. A pivotal date is a calendar date in history that has a sound basis for acceptance and that corresponds to a specific event recorded in the Bible. It can then be used as the starting point from which a series of Bible events can be located on the calendar with certainty. Once this pivotal point is fixed, calculations forward or backward from this date are made from accurate records in the Bible itself, such as the stated life spans of people or the duration of the reigns of kings. Thus, starting from a pegged point, we can use the reliable internal chronology of the Bible itself in dating many Bible events.
28 Pivotal Date for the Hebrew Scriptures. A prominent event recorded both in the Bible and in secular history is the overthrow of the city of Babylon by the Medes and Persians under Cyrus. The Bible records this event at Daniel 5:30. Various historical sources (including Diodorus, Africanus, Eusebius, Ptolemy, and the Babylonian tablets) support 539 B.C.E. as the year for the overthrow of Babylon by Cyrus. The Nabonidus Chronicle gives the month and day of the city’s fall (the year is missing). Secular chronologers have thus set the date for the fall of Babylon as October 11, 539 B.C.E., according to the Julian calendar, or October 5 by the Gregorian calendar.They are their own worst enemies.. aren't they? We apostates don't even have to add a word...
A@G
-
AnnOMaly
Hey oompa, I noticed the same in the Insight book.
"These two lunar eclipses can evidently be identified [hmm, the CD-ROM's different - my hard copy only has "can be identified"] with the lunar eclipses that were visible at Babylon on July 16, 523 B.C.E., and on January 10, 522 B.C.E. (Oppolzer’s CanonofEclipses, translated by O. Gingerich, 1962, p. 335) Thus, this tablet establishes the seventh year of Cambyses II as beginning in the spring of 523 B.C.E. This is an astronomically confirmed date." - p. 453
BUT ...
"Many of the so-called synchronizations of astronomical data with events or dates of ancient history are based on solar or lunar eclipses. However, any "particular town or city would on the average experience about 40 lunar eclipses and 20 partial solar eclipses in 50 years, [although] only one total solar eclipse in 400 years." (EncyclopaediaBritannica, 1971, Vol. 7, p. 907) So, only in the case of a definitelystatedtotal solar eclipse visible in a specificarea would there be little reason for doubt in the fixing of a particular historical date by such means. In many cases the material from the ancient cuneiform texts (or other sources) concerning eclipses does not provide such specific information. [they don't say that in many other cases the cuneiform texts do provide specific information!] " - p.454
Umm. The LUNAR eclipses on Strm. Kambys 400 can astronomically identify and fix a date, but at the same time we can't rely on lunar eclipses to fix a date because there are so many. Only a 'definitely stated total SOLAR eclipse visible in a specific area' could reasonably fix a date. Therefore, that's gotta mean the dating for Strm. Kambys 400 is only tentative. But they say it's confirmed. So which is it? It's all so confusing ...
-
blondie
In the 1960's the WTS said 539 BCE was an "absolute date".
Late that was changed to "pivotal date."
But they do say that this human historically defined date determines their doctrine on 1914.
** w68 5/1 p. 268 par. 20 Understanding Time a Help to True Worshipers ***For calculating Hebrew Scripture dates, the absolute date of October 5 to 6 in the year 539 B.C.E. is essential.
*** w68 8/15 p. 490 par. 11 The Book of Truthful Historical Dates ***So too in determining where mankind is on the pathway of time, it will not solve the problem simply to translate ancient calendars into present-day systems. One must first measure back in time across the gulf that separates the present from the ancient Biblical record of the past, to a stationary point in history, to a fixed date of the past, to an absolutedate, if you please. Such a date must be one where sacred and secular historical events coincide and are linked in perfect agreement with current methods of measuring time distances.
***
si (1990) p.85par.3BibleBookNumber15—Ezra***This date 539 B.C.E. is a pivotal date, that is, a date that may be harmonized with both secular and Biblical history.