Is "Adamic sin"confined to humankind?

by changeling 10 Replies latest jw friends

  • changeling
    changeling

    I seem to recall that that is the WT's stand. Well, if that's the case:

    Other than the damage humans have caused to the environment, what's up with animals with disease and birth defects, plant diseases and weather related catastrophes?

    So, ok, animals were not created with everlasting life in view (WT's stand), but why do they have crippling and painful diseases? Wouldn't a loving god have made them to just pass away peacefully in their old age? What about fungus and other plant blights?

    Apparently God created a lot of icky stuff and inflicted it on the animal and plant kingdoms. And he made the earth vulnerable to siesmic activity, tornados, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc, etc.

    Oh and lets not forget the many times the earth suffered hits from meteorites and such.

    This loving god looked upon his creation and proclaimed it was "good". It seems to me an all powerful being could have created something a little less vulnerable.

    changeling :)

  • Lady Zombie
    Lady Zombie

    I always found this confusing too. Ok, so if through Adamic sin, all humans die, what about natural disasters? Just because one is perfect and won't die through disease and old age, does that naturally exclude being struck by lightning? What if a perfect human is walking along a cliff and some of the dirt gives way, does being perfect stop the person from dying after dropping several hundred feet?

    Or will Jehovah somehow miraculously intervene?

    Animals die regardless of Adamic sin or not. Apparently though, during Adam's perfection, carnivores were vegetarian. Yeah, it makes a whole lot of sense that a carnivore with the teeth and digestive system that perfers meat should be eating grass.

    Oh, but don't forget, just because mankind will grow back into perfection, they can still "fall" (end of 1,000 year reign).

    What a load of crap. Fairy tales and hocus pocus.

    Of course once you study up on some good old fashioned science, things make a lot more sense.

  • changeling
    changeling
    What if a perfect human is walking along a cliff and some of the dirt gives way, does being perfect stop the person from dying after dropping several hundred feet?

    I asked my mom this question when I was little. She answered: "a perfect person would know better than to stand at the edge of a cliff".

    changeling :)

  • Tired of the Hypocrisy
    Tired of the Hypocrisy

    With the exception of the Serpent, who was made to crawl upon his belly like a worm.

  • Awakened07
    Awakened07

    Well - I was going to start a similar topic, but I guess I can paste my post here instead:

    So - - animals and man were created by God. Man disobeyed, and got punished for it. Cursed, even. No record in the Bible of animals doing anything wrong, except for the snake, which was just used as a puppet anyway (if we are to believe that all scriptures are inspired and that what it says in the NT about this is true, and not just a way to explain the 'original snake' in a way that is easier to swallow).

    Now - animals were not cursed, except - again - the snake, which from then on had to crawl on its belly and eat dust. But, if I'm not mistaken, that part of the story is not to be taken literally, as it's part of a prophecy (at least it is now).

    OK. So, since animals did not sin, and were therefore not cursed, we must assume they were the same all along. They lived, were sometimes in pain, and died, throughout.

    Thing is - - animals definitely feel physical pain. Animal owners or people who observe animals - heck, anyone - would say so, and that they sometimes at least look like they feel emotional pain as well. If you've ever seen a video of someone mistreating an animal (I can't watch those for more than a second or two, I'm enraged so much), you'll see and hear that they definitely feel physical pain and anguish.

    Animals get similar diseases to us, and they have a few of their very own. Eve was cursed with painful childbirth (meaning it wouldn't have been painful until then), while animals have always birthed somewhat in pain (at least mammals); no pre-curse condition for them to explain why. I haven't talked to a horse or a great ape about it, but I assume that more or less the same physical limitations exist in other mammals as in humans; push a large object through a small orifice with many nerve endings and you will experience some pain. Animals are more quiet about it though; they have to be in order to survive out there by not drawing attention to themselves.

    So - animals are born in pain, live, experience good times and bad, get sick, feel pain and stress at times throughout, and die. Sometimes 'prematurely', to serve as food for us, for other animals or due to painful diseases or "wear and tear" from our use.

    What did animals do to deserve all this? For humans it was a curse. And apparently, there are plans in place for our 'restitution'. For animals, it was... intended? I'm not so much talking about death (although that too), but more about pain, diseases, and suffering while living.

    Is the answer that they were simply created to be nothing more than food for us, vehicles to in various ways carry mankind on their shoulders (literally and figuratively)? To remind us of our mortality and of pain?

    Is God a little "Meh..." when it comes to animal feelings and lives?

    Will animals eventually get their 'restitution'?

  • sir82
    sir82
    Just because one is perfect and won't die through disease and old age, does that naturally exclude being struck by lightning? What if a perfect human is walking along a cliff and some of the dirt gives way, does being perfect stop the person from dying after dropping several hundred feet?

    Oh ye of little faith!

    Do you not realize that "Roadrunner" cartoons are a prophetic foregleam of things to come?

    Or an "antitype", if you will.

    In the new system, in the case of accidents such as you describe, we'll just jump up and dust ourselves off like Wile E. Coyote.

  • Lady Zombie
    Lady Zombie

    Yeah

    OG J-Hoovie has mad hate for the animals apparently.

  • Finally-Free
    Finally-Free

    My bird, Rocco, has been sinning a lot lately. He's been breaking out of his cage while I'm at work. So far he's shredded 2 pillows, my loveseat, pulled the stitching out of my leather recliner couch, broken the switch off of my lamp, ruined 3 of my best shirts, and chewed up some molding.

    W

  • BreakingAway
    BreakingAway

    I made some comments that involved this some time back, I'll paste them here:

    Obviously, mankind, both as a society and as individuals, just doesn't seem to have what it takes to please God.The first man ever made , Adam, "screwed up", so he killed him..The first woman ever, "screwed up", so he killed her..One of the top angels (and his buddies)screwed up, so he's gonna kill all of them.The preflood descendants of Adam screwed up, so he killed them....and kicked in the innocent animals as a bonus. God's chosen people screwed up, so he killed them.The world today is in opposition to God as well, so he's gonna kill all of us.Does this guy create anything he doesn't get pissed off at and kill ? Might I put a note in the suggestion box to stop making stuff that screws up so you don't have to kill it ? Or how about just not acting like a dick and having impossible standards ? Which brings us back to the original thread about being judged unfairly.

    Really, it looks like God plain ol' just doesn't care.His word says he's "opening his hand and satisfying the desire of every living thing" yet, that's obviously not the case.And if all of God's work is perfect and good,then that means that since they didn't sin, he must have made them that way.He made them so that they get cancer, go blind,starve,get painful loathsome diseases and otherwise suffer.Sounds like a really great guy.

    Oh...and while we're at it.He told Adam and Eve they would die.But he let them live, condemned their children to death and as a bonus he gave all future women greatly increased birth pain and decided to curse the ground just for the hell of it.Doesn't sound like such a happy god after all.

  • parakeet
    parakeet

    "My bird, Rocco, has been sinning a lot lately. He's been breaking out of his cage while I'm at work. So far he's shredded 2 pillows, my loveseat, pulled the stitching out of my leather recliner couch, broken the switch off of my lamp, ruined 3 of my best shirts, and chewed up some molding."





    But on topic, Mark Twain once wrote a satire about Noah and how, when the rains started falling, he realized he had forgotten the tsetse fly and had to go back and get it. Couldn't forget something that causes misery and death to humans and animals!

    And let's not forget the many depictions in the Watchtower of happy, smiling dubs grilling steaks in God's perfect new world.

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