What CHARLES MANSON and FRED FRANZ have in common...

by Terry 16 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • Terry
    Terry

    Charles Manson and Fred Franz had something in common.

    Both believed the end of the world was coming. Franz believed it would start by the governments destroying religion. Manson believed it would be a race war between blacks and whites.

    Both men indoctrinated their listeners with chapter and verse telling what was going down "shortly". Both men offered a refuge for those who desired to escape the calamity just up ahead.

    Manson found weird clues everywhere, even in Beatle's music such as HELTER SKELTER.

    Franz found weird clues in homemade chronology and connecting of scriptures with secular dates in history.

    What dovetails the two of them (Manson and Franz) is that each of them stepped over the line by deciding to MAKE the predicted events come true by giving it a little help.

    Franz began writing nonsense "proving" six thousand years of human existence was coming in 75 and linking it to the start of the thousand year reign of Christ. This meant Armageddon had to immediately precede. By getting everybody worked up, Franz hoped to bring down the wrath of the national authorities governmentally because of the preaching work of JW's condeming all political authority.

    Manson staged high profile ritual slayings and left broad clues that it was a racially motivated spree of carnage. This would bring the whites and blacks into direct confrontation and start the race war he hoped to survive at the Spahn ranch (with his little flock). They would survive and rule over the blacks with a Manson led civilization. Manson at the top of the food chain.

    Franz forced the issue by sending out public pronouncements in the books he penned. An unprecedented door to door campaign and baptism marathon clearly declared JW's intention to signal the end of all governments and religions with themselves as sole survivors.

    Both men clearly entertained psychotic fantasies. Each were clearly aware events would not happen if left alone. Both willing to bring the end of the world to justify their own preachments and messianic fantasies.

    Manson did no killing on his own that the authorities could connect him with directly. It was his Apocalyptic scenario (Helter Skelter) that moved others to commit mayhem.

    Franz was able to get others to do his dirty work wrecking families and educational hopes and careers and landing thousands of young men in prison over bogus "neutrality" issues designed to anger governments.

    Franz suffered no punishment. He rose to the top the Organization and ended his day as a celebrated "prophet".

    Something to think about.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Both built (or managed) an "organization" that was predominately women, and then proceeded to do all they could to dominate them into total submission.

    Both believed strongly in the "cult compound" control mechanism - they wanted their inner circle to live communally with them where they could have the most control.

    Manson claimed to have special mystic powers - Freddy claimed to be both a Greek and Hebrew scholar.

    Manson had a totally screwed up family life - so did Jim Jones, (what about Freddy?)

  • sir82
    sir82
    By getting everybody worked up, Franz hoped to bring down the wrath of the national authorities governmentally because of the preaching work of JW's condeming all political authority.

    Plausible, but seems awfully speculative.

    Or did you talk to someone who knew F. Franz personally and related this?

    Otherwise, ascribing motives of persons long dead to actions long ago seems iffy at best.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    If I recall the Franz doctrine correctly, he thought that all the secular nations would turn on the Christendom Churches (do they still use that word Christendom?) - and that would start the great tribulation.

    Since JWs would also face the wrath of the governments at that time (being ostensibly another Church), their persecution would anger the war-God and bring down destruction on everybody.

    *** disclaimer, spoiler alert *** -- IIRC.

    Could Freddy have thought he was bringing it about, or just merely dreaming it up and prophecying it? I don't know - on the one hand it sounds pretty fantastic, for sure. But there is ample evidence to indicate that the JWs have a long history of trying to influence world affairs by making load pronouncements against this or that Governent or Religion. Like the 7 trupet blasts, or all the letters they blasted at Malawi in the 60s.

    Personally, I think old Franz was just a pitiful old codger, well into his dodys, who was mad with his own prophetic power. He had probably deluded himself into believing that it would all play out the way he dreamed without any help at all - just like clockwork.

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Persons familiar with the history of the WTB&TS know that Fred Franz and Nathan Knorr came up in the organization as Rutherford's errand boys. There can be no doubt that they learned to influence secular events just as their Master, "the Judge" did.

    Rutherford saw the difficulties inflicted on the Bible Students over political neutrality issues, so he emphasised the "importance" of political neutrality - at the same time he wrote love letters to Herr Hitler. Knorr, in his time, orchestrated the Malawi debacle.

    The alcoholic Rutherford blasted the temperance movement with vigor that might lead one to believe that ethanol was a sacred sacrament. He placed his imprimatur on Watchtower whack-job promotion of fringe-science medical devices, the value of Radium in maintaining good health, denunciations of Aluminum pots and pans as a toxic and medical theology forbidding vaccination as a disgusting consumption of pus. Franz and Knorr cobbled together the Watchtower's doctrines forbidding organ transplants and blood transfusions. Today's Watchtower leadership encourages the use of Arsenic in the treatment of leukemia.

    Like Rutherford, Manson, Hitler, Jim Jones, Herbert Armstrong and Marshall Applewhite, Franz and Knorr were puppetmasters, and puppets never see the strings.

  • sir82
    sir82

    Yeah, but pulling the strings of JWs is a lot different than writing wildly goofy stuff in the hopes that it precipitates the end of global civilization and burning brimstone from the sky.

    And anyone thinking that he could initiate the rain of truck-sized hailstones and Will-Smith-swallowing-chasms by writing & printing the goofy stuff would have to be....well...a wee bit more than nutso. Ol' Fred was an odd bird, but was he that far gone?

    Maybe, but I'd like to know if he really was, or if somebody who (probably) never met him just thinks he was.

  • FreudianSlip
    FreudianSlip

    You could find similarities between any 2 people that have ever lived. Whoop-dee-doo!

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan
    Ol' Fred was an odd bird, but was he that far gone?

    Have you read the Revelation Climax book lately? ;) A man who sees in the convention of an obscure Adventist offshoot held in Cedar Point Ohio nothing less than the fulfillment of Gawd-inspired Bible prophecy is "that far gone" and then some. lol

  • TweetieBird
    TweetieBird
    Have you read the Revelation Climax book lately? ;) A man who sees in the convention of an obscure Adventist offshoot held in Cedar Point Ohio nothing less than the fulfillment of Gawd-inspired Bible prophecy is "that far gone" and then some. lol

    My thoughts exactly. As a believing dub I always found this to be really stretching things. I would look around the book study and wonder how all of these seemingly intelligent people could be swallowing the bs.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    OK, so Whoop-di-do...but it is not that simple to pass off.

    What we are talking about here is the congenital similarity between cult leaders. And I do see great similarity - of course there is a similarity to get a cult started!

    David Koresh, Jim Jones, L. Ron Hubbard, Russell/Rutherford, and the stated Charlie Manson: Many similarities. Control freaks all, and dangerous ones at that.

    I tend to fall on the side of the argument that contrary to Manson's Helter Skelter (which was entirely to be a man-made thing), both Rutherford and Franz believed they were God's instrument on earth and that they were acting in God's behalf to proclaim their crazy message. God would act to vindicate them and bring on the destruction of their enemies - not necessarily that they were "hurrying God up" by giving the message.

    But as far as being complete Cult Leaders, and dangerous ones at that, they were all similar personalities.

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