-Are "apostates" more strict on WBTS doctrine than active Witnesses?

by Awakened07 15 Replies latest jw friends

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  Awakened07

  Or: "Common responses to criticism, by active Jehovah's Witnesses", which I could also have called this topic.

  -A video I just saw on YouTube made by an active Witness took me down memory lane a bit, and reminded me of how I used to think and respond to some common criticisms of the JWs. As I started writing this post, I had planned to put this person's thoughts point-by-point, but it turned out he was pretty much only covering one common critisism. Perhaps I'll add others in successive posts, and we can go through them.

  Instead of posting the link to the video, I'll write the main points down here, because I don't want this to be about that person, but rather the arguments used. What I write will not be totally verbatim, but close enough (I've done my best not to add anything he doesn't mean).

  So, here it is. This is in response to the "apostate" argument that an active JW has to obey and follow everything the FDS teaches. So this is one active JW's response:

  "We don't have to follow every single word that the Watchtower society says. I do not follow any man-made organization or any man, I am a Witness to Jehovah God, not to the Watchtower organization.

  'The faithful and discreet slave' (reads Mat. 24:45) are made up of the anointed brothers of Christ still alive here on earth; the remnant of the 144.000. I don't follow them; I follow Jesus Christ, I follow Jehovah God. I do believe the FDS is a tool Jehovah God uses in these last days to give 'food' to God's people. I don't believe everything the Watchtower teaches are necessarily true teachings. There are lots of misrepresentations, and a lot of things I don't agree with in the Watchtower society. Very minor things though, it's not anything too big. But I think this is actually prophecy: The Bible foretells this in Ezekiel 36, verse 33 (reads). So Jehovah foretold a spiritual cleansing of his people, and I believe this is being done today, ever since Jesus Christ was crowned king in heaven in 1914.

  It's been progressive, it hasn't been instantaneous. Remember, Jehovah's Witnesses are a Bible-based religion, We are not going to have all the scriptural answers just like that (snaps fingers). It's gonna take time, because we are an organization that study the scriptures. We're not gonna know everything within a few years. We have to study and make... ...the Bible is a big book, we have to make sure things are in harmony with itself; we have to make sure the inspired word is in harmony with all the other things in the scriptures. Since I do not agree with a lot of things the Watchtower society teaches, some of you may ask 'So why are you still a JW?' -I have the same attitude David did (quotes 1. Samuel now, 24:6) I believe it is completely inappropriate for a Christian to go against what the FDS says, because they are the anointed of Jehovah. King Saul here, he was evil, he was a person who was detestable in the eyes of God, yet, as a faithful servant of God, David did not dare thrust his hand against Jehovah's anointed. This is the same attitude I hold today. I love my faithful brothers in the truth, I love the FDS, they do so much for us, and truly are to be commended for their efforts. They are fallible, they are imperfect, they make mistakes. When I see that their teachings go beyond the things that are written in God's inspired Word, I do not agree with it, but I don't go and start preaching against it. I know that Jehovah's spirit will guide us eventually into all truth."

  So - this brought back some memories, because I used to think along the same lines myself. Possibly when I was no longer 100% active, though. Not sure how close to the fringes this person is, or if he's smack in the middle, but he claims to be active.

  But - - the reason I made this topic was not really to go through every sentence this person said and pick them apart (you may if you wish), but I wanted to ask the question:

  -Could it be said that 'apostates' are too harsh, too strict and to-the-letter when it comes to what the FDS says, and that this is not how the average JW sees things? Do you think an active Witness hears 'apostates' say "Well, they have to follow everything some old guys in Brooklyn says", and think to themselves, "Well, that's just not true, typical apostate lies and exaggerations." ? If so, would they have a point?

  I don't believe so (what does the WBTS have to say about this?), but I would like to hear your thoughts on this, and would also like a well thought-out response to the things brought up in the video.
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  bobld

  The R&F believe everything the GB say,because they are robots.When you program a computer it does what the programmers(GB) programmed into it.If the GB say shit smells good.The R&F would say isn't that a loving provision from the GB.

  Bob
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  yknot

  It all depends on the KH & BOE 'personality'.
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  milligal

  mid west JW's are, for lack of a better term 'orthodox' on how they strictly adhere to GB standards. No short skirts, bikinis, rated R movies-and even the history channel was looked down on because of documentaries on christian based topics. No facial hair on men, hair below the ears, and don't let's catch two people of the opposite sex together alone for any reason.

  I've heard other stories about California and some more liberal areas but can't attest personally to that. I think some of it is the sub culture you are associated with whether you are JW or 'apostate'.
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  BreakingAway

  We use the term "cognitive dissonance" rather often, and for good reason.It well describes how many, current Witnesses,and those on the way out, feel.It's: "An uncomfortable feeling or stress caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a fundamental cognitive drive to reduce this dissonance by modifying an existing belief, or rejecting one of the contradictory ideas."

  So the comments as expressed by this 'active Witness', is pretty much a mixture of this dissonance and the resultant apologetic hypocrisy.They say they DON'T follow everything....and then they make statements like this:

  "We don't have to follow every single word that the Watchtower society says.

  I believe it is completely inappropriate for a Christian to go against what the FDS says, because they are the anointed of Jehovah.

  This pretty much says it all right here.So if they think it's COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE to go against what the FDS says, then they DO need to follow "every single word".If not, what are those words that can be disobeyed ? Would you like to tell us, the FDS, which single words are okay to ignore ? Maybe you can tell friends which of these words are worthless ?

  Then they make this statement:

  When I see that their teachings go beyond the things that are written in God's inspired Word, I do not agree with it, but I don't go and start preaching against it. I know that Jehovah's spirit will guide us eventually into all truth."

  Really ? You don't agree with it ? But you still won't talk about it ? Because these MEN would disfellowship you , right ? Because you would be going "against it" what they said.And those who talk about it should be disfellowshipped because they're going against it, even though you don't agree ? You agree with their decision to disfellowship your brothers and sisters who don't want to follow "every single word" but you're not following men, even though it was men who made this rule ? It was these men who proclaimed THEMSELVES to be the FDS.Thomas openly expressed doubts about the very MESSIAH but wasn't disfellowshipped.Peter even denied Christ, but the FDS says sending your kids to college and talking about it will get you removed as an elder.Openly proclaiming you will NOT follow every single word will get you DF'd.Making JW videos on youtube is agianst the Society's words.This person is quite simply an apologist, and a hypocrite at that.But then they've learned from one of the best.

  Oh....and that example of Saul is one of the most tired pieces of dreck the WT and it's apologists use.That example does NOT apply to what they think it does.Why ? It was talking about killing.David simply wouldn't KILL Saul.That's it.However, David DID speak out about SAUL.And DAVID left his "brothers and sisters", the org, and fled to the wilderness because THEY wanted to KILL him !!! So then, yes, SAUL could be likened to the Organization today; EVIL and ABANDONED by God as NOT having His approval or spirit, so they are NOT God's SPIRIT DIRECTED ORGANIZATION.Even Witnesses must admit that just because someone has God's favor now, doesn't mean they ALWAYS will.Just look at what happened to the nation of Israel, they were cast off because "they left Jehovah" and killed the Messiah because they viewed him as an APOSTATE.

  Such apologists are far more forgiving of the monumental "mistakes" of the FDS than they are of their very own "brothers and sisters, who they will gladly shun without even really knowing why.
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  Sirona

  Could it be said that 'apostates' are too harsh, too strict and to-the-letter when it comes to what the FDS says, and that this is not how the average JW sees things?

  Apostates pay more attention to the reality of the teachings and the impact they have on individuals.

  Apostates are not too harsh. They are pointing out things which make a major difference to peoples lives.

  For example, the extremely damaging teachings regarding blood and blood fractions SHOULD be analysed because these teachings result in deaths of JWs. Average JWs like to ignore these issues unless it happens to them or their family. JWs don't like to admit that deaths have resulted! but apostates can point to facts which show that JWs have died and that the whole blood issue is dreamed up entirely by the FDS.

  Another example is the pedophile situation. Another is the FDS stance on higher education.

  These things are not to be ignored and the average JW is certainly prone to putting their head in the sand. So when these things are pointed out, the JW responds that the apostate is being too picky or too strict.

  Do you think an active Witness hears 'apostates' say "Well, they have to follow everything some old guys in Brooklyn says", and think to themselves, "Well, that's just not true, typical apostate lies and exaggerations." ? If so, would they have a point?

  Apostates have lived the life of a JW and we KNOW that JWs are expected to follow all of the direction of the FDS. JWs who say otherwise are lying.

  Example after example comes to mind. My JW brother turned down a fantastic job offer because of "advice" in a Watchtower article. My JW mother stopped doing Yoga because of an AWAKE article. I myself didn't go to university because it was "frowned upon" by the FDS.

  The social pressure within the JWs is huge. If you disobey you can bet that some "well meaning" brother or sister will find the article for you and put you under pressure to conform.

  Sirona
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  steve2

  Oppressed people often cope with the difficulty of their helplessness by defending their oppressors. In its most extreme form, it's known as Stockholm Syndrome, but in less extreme forms it consists of people innocently minimising aspects of the oppression. For example, in a cult, a member will proclaim that he is obeying God and not his immediate "leaders", even whilst he also knows that the leaders have zero tolerance for having their authority questioned.
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  LockedChaos

  Amazing.
  
  Not a single mention of Jesus Christ.
  I mean after all he was only the Son.
  Did something like die for everyone.
  Wasn't he also the mediator between man
  and God.
  
  Sees to me like the FDS is attempting to
  take take his place.
  
  The scriptures mention that we should beware
  of anyone or thing that tries to do that.
  
  "Evil" slave ring a bell??!!
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  Finally-Free

  "We don't have to follow every single word that the Watchtower society says. I do not follow any man-made organization or any man, I am a Witness to Jehovah God, not to the Watchtower organization.

  That's what most JWs will say. It's what the watchtower teaches them to say.

  W
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  Awakened07

  But is this a thing that is spreading? I think it is. I remember thinking like this while I was in (that we don't have to follow their every word), and I think it applies to many more, especially youths, now. It's rather ironic that they say they're "not following man", when that "man" is where they've gotten everything they believe in from. "Man" is behind 'Jehovah', "man" is behind the 'Faithful and discreet slave' -concept and the concept of who belongs to that group (and that it is a group in the first place), and all the other details of doctrine that they believe in. And yet, they say they do not follow "man". It's quite interesting, really, how the mind works when indoctrinated. To think I once would have agreed, and felt "uplifted" by this video...