S & N, how did you guys get to know so much stuff? I'm serious.
Late capitalism
by slimboyfat 42 Replies latest social current
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hillary_step
Narkissos,
Sooner or later the West may have to dig up the old socialistic lessons it has been eager to forget lately, to be able to survive as a society on the meagre leftovers of the late period of capitalistic enthusiasm.
Yes, I agree.
Though socialism as an ideal has never actually been implemented in anything more than an approximation by any nation (and we could argue the same for democracy) the natural desire for justice and a fair deal for all, inevitably moves the balance of power in that direction when the unhealthy excesses of capitalism come home to roost.
HS
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uwishufish
Capitalism needs to be defined!
Capital = currency (fiat curency) The currency used by every country on earth. A Currency that is backed by a promis of a government, not by goods.
Currency comes into existance through debt.
Debt has intrest tied to it.
When currency is created it also carrys with it its intrest burden.
So more curency than is created is needed to repay the debt.
The answer create more currency.
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hillary_step
Capitalism needs to be defined!
Well, you have defined the process of capital in a free economy, but you have not defined the ideology of capitalism, though I am quite it is not necessary as most who post to the political threads are at least aware of the ideologies on offer.
Cheers - HS
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BurnTheShips
They will will fix fannie and mac this week probably and we'll see a turnaround.
The current crisis is to a large extent a monetary crisis. Monetary policy, as enacted by the Federal Reserve. I place the blame less on the corporations (banks in this case), but on the institutions that remove the "moral hazard" for irresponsible behavior. As you note we are hearing about the the emergency extension of credit to FannieMae and FreddieMac. These were buying any and all mortgage debt created by the banks. Think of the bankers, how else could they stay ahead of the competition, in business even? They had to play the game, even though it was rigged. With the monetary supply ballooning (why did the Fed stop reporting on M3 in 2006?) and the GSEs buying all the worthless loans that meant LEND LEND LEND. A lot of new money chasing fixed (for our purposes) assets and moral hazard being removed from the equation. Classic ingredients for the disaster we are facing now.
Who created FNMA and FHLMC?
New Deal baby. Thanks, FDR.
We need a stable measure of money that is not subject to manipulation by the State in the manner that fiat currencies are.
Government enterprises like FNMA and FHLMC are not subject to market discipline like regular private-sector companies.
What we are seeing here is a crisis of State-based management of the economy, not capitalism.
BTS
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BurnTheShips
Though socialism as an ideal has never actually been implemented in anything more than an approximation by any nation
There is a reason for this.
Every step that takes us away from private ownership of the means of production and from the use of money also takes us away from rational economics
Edited to add a link:
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jstalin
The current problems are not a result of capitalism. They are a result of government interference in the market. The federal reserve created the incentives for "loose" lending by artifically manipulating interest rates and printing money like crazy. On top of that, two government-created entities, Fannie Mae and Freddia Mac, created an environment where poorly-approved loans could be transferred off the books of banks, thus eliminating the risk, and dumping it on those two government-created entities. The result is that government created an environment where a bubble was created. Frankly, government creates most bubbles through the federal reserve's monetary policies. Unfortunatley, once again (as with the great depression), capitalism is being blamed when in fact government is the culprit.
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slimboyfat
I think it is really mistaken to frame the debate in terms of old notions of left and right in politics. Our very civilization hangs in the balance. We may be heading for something unlike we can currently imagine. And it will surely involve war. At some point we (whoever there is left) may look back on the period 1945-c.2010 as a time of remarkable peace and (unsustainable) prosperity.
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hillary_step
Slim,
I think it is really mistaken to frame the debate in terms of old notions of left and right in politics. Our very civilization hangs in the balance. We may be heading for something unlike we can currently imagine. And it will surely involve war. At some point we (whoever there is left) may look back on the period 1945-c.2010 as a time of remarkable peace and (unsustainable) prosperity.
On the contrary. Framing this debate framed on a speculative, apocalyptic future is the mistake. HS
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slimboyfat
I hear what you say, but I am not a prophet hillary. I just watch the news and read my history. Maybe it will just blow over, but it feels dangerous. And we have had a terribly good run in the last couple of generations, no? I think most of us in the west have no conception of hardship or real danger any more. It feels a bit like what I have read about the heady Edwardian era leading up to the First World War, or the roaring twenties, only the denouement could be far worse this time round.
I hope I am wrong and this is just my JW background haunting me.