I NEED YOUR HELP !!

thebigdebate

Here is my story:

I was born and raised a JW. I Aux Pioneered (60 hours) in the summers when school was out. I was a Regular Pioneer (1000 hours per year) when I turned 18 because my Dad and Grandmother said that was the right thing to do. I only finished 1 year of Star Pioneering (From 1 end of the teritory to the other - to waste time). I did attend Pioneer school. That was about 13 years ago. I have since faded about 2 years ago (attended about 10 meeting (1 convention) in about 2 years). I am fulling convinced that it is a bunch of BS (after doing my research on the Borg). I have read the Gentile Times Reconsidered & Crisis. I have been thinking about just fading out and remaining inactive. The only problem is that my Dad and Grandmother are all the way in (Dad and Grandfather (Grandfather only becuase he listing to Grandma) are Elders). My brother in DF'd (one of my best friends), (my sister is inactive and dating a worldly guy). I have thought about DA myself but I dont know if it is worth giving up the rest of my family (I dont think that it is) I have 4 kids and I dont want them around the Borg. My wife is now also ready to get out (She just got 4 tattoo's in the last couple of months).

Here is the Problem:

I had a Chat with my grandmother and told her how I feel. I told her that 1914 and 607BCE is a bunch of crap. Now she went to the Borg's books (Insight book) and printed up there answers. She wants me to come over and go over the material that she found ( I already read the Borg's answers to 607BCE). Because she is going to listen to everying the Borg say's, she will not look at The Gentile Times Reconsidered. The question and help that I need is: How do I show her that 1914 and 607 is a bunch of crap with out showing her the book?

I need to go over there and talk with her about this sometime this week. I don't know if it is worth it to keep this going and debating this with her, because if I do I will most likely get DF'd and I dont know if that is worth it. Or should I just go over there and agree with the insight book and say - Now it makes sense to me and then just let it go?

Sorry for any spelling or grammer mistakes (I had to quite HS so I could pioneer) True Story !!

kwintestal

Check out this thread:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx

Alleymom's "KISS 586/587" approach shows from WT's own literature that 607 is wrong.

Kwin

thebigdebate

That looks perfect for what I need !! Thank you very much. Now I need to put it together and show it to her !!

Billy the Ex-Bethelite

Hey TBD,

How does Grandma feel about "this generation"?

Insight "Generation" still is old lite, " The people of this 20th-century generation living since 1914..." Really, with their new "this generation", that extends from 33CE to time indefinite, making 1914 a meaningless start to "the last days".

B the X

yknot

On the other end of the spectrum......

Sometimes it is just best to pacify and fade completely into inactivity.........

Some battles are best left to fight another day......

Only you and your wife can decide what is best for yalls family

drew sagan

How do I show her that 1914 and 607 is a bunch of crap with out showing her the book?

In two words.....

You can't!

You went through a 'crisis of faith', but those around you probably are not. What is important to you right now is not important to them. It's like trying to get your mom to like watching baseball on tv. Sure every once and a while somebody's mom somewhere is watching it, but chances are it's not yours.

You need to slow down and regroup. Think long term. All the JW cares about is that they have an answer from a book that explains it all. To them JW publications are all powerful and all knowing. There is no way in hell a JW is going to believe whatever you say over what the magazines and books say.

Your situation is part of a bigger problem than you realize. Just think about what you are doing. You are arguing over ancient mesopotamian history with your grandmother. Dude, like WTF?!?

The people who write those crappy magazines sit in their ivory tower and answer to nobody (including other scholars who are experts on the issue). Instead they leave all the debate to be taken up by you and your grandma. See how screwed up that is?

jwfacts

If you look through http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/1914.htm there are a few other issues discussed. This includes where Russell got his interpretation from and being able to tell her what the 70 years were.

thebigdebate

Billy:

One of my big things (for questioning the Borg) was the "Generation" thing. It was easy for me because I grew up thinking that it can only be 1 or 2 more years because people from 1914 were 80 or 90 years old. Why is it that NEW UNDERSTANDING always comes when they were wrong about dates?

I am thinking that not debating it might be the best answer. I agree that I dont think that anything that I say will change anything. The only thing that gives me hope is seeing all of the people on here that were Pioneers, Elders, MS's, ect. I just wonder if I can get them to question something and get them looking into it.

My goal:

I would love for my Dad and Grandma to be able to practice UNCONDITIONAL LOVE (They are shunning my brother because he is DF'd). I dont know how they miss that in the Bible (I know that it is the Borgs teaching).

By the way, I bet $50 on Justin Morneau in the home run derby tonight and won $250. (Very happy)

thebigdebate

Funny thing:

I told my dad how I felt about the Generation garbage, and he told me that jw's never made a big thing about it !!! Ha Ha Ha.

I said you got to be kidding me, it was my presentation at the door. I used to read the inside cover of the Awake mags to the house holder then ask them if they wanted the mags. He said that he didn't remember that, is that because he was programed to forget about the generation? It reminded me about the movie MEN IN BLACK when they waived the light thing in front of them to erase there memory.

LayingLow

I can't help you so much with the historical aspects behind the 587/607 thing. But I think that looking at Luke 21:24 in context is quite telling. In vs. 20 it begins with Jerusalem being encamped by armies. The "anti-typical" fulfillment of this to a JW is the great tribulation breaking out. You may notice that in vs. 24 the trampling of Jerusalem (where the holy ones are or that which they constitute) ends when the gentile times ends.

So the gentile times end when the great tribulation ends. That means the gentile times expire in the future and not 94 years in the past. This used to fit the witness explanation since they believe they were in time of trouble (great tribulation) from around the late 1870's until 1914. They expected 1914 to end the gentile times and the great tribulation.

Then they changed their doctrine so that the great tribulation took place from 1914-1918 so this could potentially still make sense in chronological order. However, now that they have pegged the great tribulation as a future event, they are chronologically out of order.

In addition, you may ask her to summarize the events surrounding the gentile times expiring. Jerusalem gets trampled. Gentiles do the trampling. It ends after a set period of time.

Now look through the scriptures for set periods of time when Jerusalem gets trampled, gentiles do the tramping, and there is a set time. Here are some:

Dan 7:25- And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time.

Dan 12:7-And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Rev 11:1,2-And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and one said, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. And the court which is without the temple leave without, and measure it not; for it hath been given unto the nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

That same period is mentioned again in Rev 12 but I'm not sure if its the same events being described. Either way, if there is a gentile time that needs to be known, it appears to me that it would be the three and a half times from the above stated scriptures and not the 7 times which had a literal fulfillment in Nebuchadnezzar.

I hope this helps. Chronology seems very messy to me. Chronological order and accurate application seems a bit easier (or at least makes more sense to me).

I NEED YOUR HELP !!

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