Stilla I agree in part, but companies also set the standard. Had these major car companies made an effort to push the electric car then consumers would feel persuaded to buy them simply because of lack of options. Millions of people would still by Windows XP yet Windows refuses to make or sell XP which in turn forces the majority of PC users to get Vista. Same with electric cars if these companies in a way forced people to buy them, they would now be just as popular.
Who Killed The Electric Car?
by chrisjoel 56 Replies latest jw friends
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dogon
CNN just had a pc. on this sub. It said that GM built and leased 1000 electric cars in the late 80s, then when gas dumped they took them back and destroyed them. The big Problem is that there is much much more money in the big suv's and Hummers than in the Avao or cobalt, In fact there may not even be a real proffit in these cars but because of the Caffee statdards the car companys have to sell some to comply with the gov. regs.
Gas at this price if peak oil is real or not, is a good thing in desguise. Now people are dumping the expensive POS suv's and big trucks like the plague. Now the push is to reinvent the small car and electirc car.
Oil has been high for so long it would take a big dump in price for a long time to get the sting out of the American peoples mind.
We have become fat and lazy and feel somehow it is our right to own a Tahoe so mom can run to the store and pick up a half gal. of skim milk.
Change is coming and it is good.
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james_woods
What killed it in the early days of the automobile (back when electric, steam, and gasoline were all viable contenders) - WWone days...was a combination of limited range, low performance, and fairly high cost for what you received.
What put the final nail in the coffin was the electric self-starter for gasoline cars - which removed the one truly compelling argument for the steam or electric car: you did not have to start your engine with a dangerous hand crank any longer.
We went through a long discussion of this in another thread on Oil Drilling, but what is holding it back today is primarily cost and energy density - you simply cannot pack enough power in a comparably light and compact battery to pretend to compete with a tank of gasoline. They will continue to have a role in urban and special purpose vehicles.
As I commented in that thread, if a highway distribution system of electricity to moving cars (like electrical trains, for example) could be developed, then I could see the electric car being a general purpose automotive candidate. It could still have batteries to move independently, but recharge itself while driving on the distribution grid.
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dogon
Junk guy... You are listening to Hannity and limburger to much and it is clouding your thingking. Yes there is oil in the center of this country, but first off it is locked up in shale, Here is what the geol. say thay can do to get it. Pump in the ground super heated water for three years to creat a pocket of oil out of the shale. How do they heat the water? Natural Gas, Yep and it costs ten times as much to get out as does off shore drilling.
Even if we drill more and I think this is a nessary evil, All you have done in the end is push off the problem a few years down the road.
Or to another generation. I guess if you do not give a rats ass about your kids this would be fine. Kind of like burning your home for heat becasue you only have an hour to live, and screw your family. But I guess it is the Republican thing to do.
Why dirll in Alaska? 65% of the oil we already recover there is sent to Japan. Then we turn around and buy most of what we use from Canada.
Here is another point, Canada is extracting oil from tar sand, Do you know anything about how hard it is to get a bbl of oil out of tar sand?
If oil was so dam easy to get here they would not be buying it from Canada tar sand companys. Not to mention have you seen the tailings left behind by the tar sand extraction? The only reason Canada is letting it go is because it is bringing in so much money.
How can you listen to the same old tired Republican carp. Drill drill drill. Limburger is a whinner and now only pisses and moans on the radio. He puts down anything that is not oil related, He pushes only big business and pretends to be for the little guy. Nothing could be farther from the truth. He and Hannity both put down McCain and now are on his band wagon to one deg. or another. They poke fun at the change aspect of Oboma but the reason change resignates so much with the American people is because of the last 8 years of a monkey in the white house. I dont see how he and dick could screw things up any more but having seen what they did the last 7 and 1/2 years I would not be supprised if the put the dildo to us several more times. For those who say Oboma is not experianced enough, I say we have seen sutpid white guys cant run the country, lets give some one else a chance, they cant do any worse.
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james_woods
Dogon, I am taking into account that you say you are from France, have only 52 posts here, and hate the Republican Party.
All in stride for this forum...but -
Wasn't this thread about Electric Cars? And their viability in the transportation market?
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maximumtool
This video is 98% propoganda. Technology and the choices exercised by consumers, as in us, are what has repeatedly killed the electric car.
When the know how to create a battery that will drive anything but an underpowered tin can doesnt exist, you have can only give people the option of driving underpowered tin cans. This is what happened from 1996 to 2003 with GM, and 1997 to 1999 with Honda, 1997 to 2002 with Toyota, and 1998 to 2002 with Ford. All of these products failed because the cars would never become profitable, and people in these time periods chose to buy every flavor of truck and SUV imaginable. When the United States has 5% of the worlds population and uses almost one third of the oil, that is where the problem comes in. We as consumers chose the direction, and businesses simply gave us what we wanted, myself included.
Consumers in a capatalistic economy always choose the markets and the products follow, unless there is a significant technology barrier in which case the products follow after that barrier is overcome. People have wanted an electric car for decades, the technology simply has not existed to give people that product in a safe, practical, realistic and truly usable form.
You dont think that the coal industry would love to have us all driving electric cars? There is more coal in the US then anywhere else in the world. Do you think that the coal industry would just sit back and let the oil industry crap on them? The auto industry, both domestic and foreign, has been trying unsuccessfully to roll out electric cars for decades. It is the technology hurdles that have prevented a truly useful product from being delivered, and we chose instead to buy huge gas guzzling beasts as opposed to being inconvenienced. We gave the oil companys every card in the deck so that they would be able to profit so enormously.
There is now a company called A123 that is creating a battery that will finally drive and power a normal functional car that performs normally and has a range that accomodates most peoples daily commutes. This company has an exclusive deal with GM and will actually lead to a real and truly viable electic car. The development of this new battery technology began years before the recent oil price explosion and is the result of the true interest in an electric car that has been around for decades. This battery will finally give people the option of buying a realistic electric car that you can actually drive. Thus, there is a good chance that people will buy it.
There is nothing the oil industry will be able to do to stop it.
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Jim_TX
I think that electric vehicles are not 'dead' - they're just in hibernation.
While it is true that GM destroyed the EV1's - perhaps they need to rethink the electric vehicle. I would think that they are - especially now, since they're experiencing a downturn in larger vehicle sales. (Money talks)
As for what is out there already... there is the Tesla (for the few that can afford it like Arnold Schwarzenegger), as well as a sprinkling of other electric auto manufacturers that are beginning to be taken seriously.
http://www.aptera.com/ - is an example of one
What is helping the electric vehicle to get more attention is the higher price of fuel, as well as the current offerings out there - that are hybrids. Much of the research done with hybrids can carry over to 100% electrics.
What one needs to be careful of though is seperating the NEVs (Zenn) from the truely compatible 'road worthy' electric vehicles, that have not only the ability to go over 25mph, but also the range needed here in the states.
I believe 'range' is the main reason that electric vehicles have not been taken seriously - at least by me - here in the U.S. (and Texas). There are times when I need to travel from San Antonio up IH35 to Austin (75 miles or so) or Dallas (over 400 miles), and do so at sustained highway speeds of 70 to 75 mph. Not many electrics (if any) can do that right now... but a few are coming close.
Another reason is that many of the electrics require a recharge after driving about 40 to 60 miles. This may work for commuter day-to-day driving... but just think how you would feel about having to stop at a gas station for a fill-up after driving 40 to 60 miles. (I know... stretching a point... as the usual method for electrics is to recharge them overnight.)
Also - many electric vehicles lack Air Conditioning. This is a serious issue when you live in South Texas. While I have owned vehicles that have not had A/C in the past... usually these were limited to my own personal work vehicles - or was waaaay back when I was single - as I can tolerate (barely) no A/C in a vehicle. But - put a couple of other people in the vehicle, and the complaining - and fanning starts.
I know this topic was not meant to cover details like this - I apologize for wandering off-topic.
Regards,
Jim TX
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james_woods
Jim, that wasn't off topic at all - BTW, are you adding this to your master list of conspiricy theories that you have freed yourself from? Your point is right - the electric car problem is energy storage capacity. Only when the pain at the pump becomes severe enough to put up with one for most people will they rise again.
BTW - for those who think that there is some dark purpose behind GM "destroying all the EV1 cars", this is common practice for a manufacturer with prototypes that have served their purpose. Most new car production lines are run for a week or so - maybe up to a hundred production samples, before valid VIN numbered cars are made in order to fine tune the production process. These cars cannot be sold legally and end up as test vehicles, sometimes race cars, but are usually just destroyed.
Chrysler made about 50 gas turbine cars back in the late 50s and early 60s - I still remember that they brought one by for my grandfather to drive for a weekend. The cars were passed around to various members of the public to evaluate their reactions, and then collected up and all but three or four museum pieces were then sent to the crusher because they had served their purpose and Chrysler did not want the liability of them getting into private hands.
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SixofNine
"Also - many electric vehicles lack Air Conditioning. This is a serious issue when you live in South Texas. While I have owned vehicles that have not had A/C in the past... usually these were limited to my own personal work vehicles - or was waaaay back when I was single - as I can tolerate (barely) no A/C in a vehicle."
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A/C is one thing that makes me excited about the "air car". I can see it leapfrogging other, more directly electric vehicles because it's exhaust comes out freezing cold; every vehicle utilizing this tech will have more A/C than it knows what to do with.
The newest Prius is going to have an option of solar cells on it's roof, that will be used for dash electronics and A/C etc. A nice addition for getting set up to do plug-in.
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james_woods
SixofNine - what do you mean by "air car"? A car powered by stored compressed air which is released into an expansion motor of some kind? Yes, the expansion would cool the air - if this is the technology you mean.
However, how in the world are you going to store enough compressed air to get yourself out of sight of your own garage? The energy storage would even be lower than the simplest lead-acid battery electric car.