Your orange analogy shows a lot about your contempt for world law.
We're dealing with a permanent international court, not with a Texas-based family run business.
10 Years International Crime Court: Towards World Law?
by hamilcarr 202 Replies latest social current
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BurnTheShips
There has been no hatred of the US displayed in this thread
It need not be explicit. This thread is, as this board is, rife with anti-americanism. It is a cultural racism. It need not be explicit to exist. If an American disagrees it is because he is ignorant and stupid. This view itself stems from ignorance and propaganda. All too many Euros seem to look at us as some sort of a subcivilized horde. A bunch of materialistic gun toting mindless violent (yet somehow submissive and obedient!) consumers. While we are derided on the one hand as materialists (as recently posted here) on the other hand their spiritual interests and morality are laughed at. We are "ignorant and uninformed" about the outside world.
The truth is that a high proportion of Euros know very little about our history and culture and that we have a seperate existence apart from our roots over there. From our very beginnings, we endeavored mightily to separate ourselves from the wars and controversies embroiling the old world, and though we largely failed in the 20th century, the undercurrent still runs strong. Hence the skepticism of the ICC, a darling of the EU and a creature of the UN.
As for the ICC, to surrender our citizens to a foreign body not answerable to our people and to be submitted to a trial without a jury of peers is an ultraje of our most cherished laws and traditions. That was my point in my very first post on this thread. If you don't get that you don't understand us. We see the world in a different way from you. We don't have a contempt for law, but we do have a contempt for government, which is what ultimately enforces law in our world. Get it?
We were hammering and perfecting our democracy when your nations still had absolute monarchs ruling by divine right. HS, that noxious idiotic boor, levies claims that we need to learn democracy here. Huh? Germany and Italy have only had democracy since the 40's. Spain? 70's. UK still has titles of nobility. France is run not by votes but by riots and strikes.
As for this alleged American support of the ICC, I suspect these people are ill informed, the more Americans know about it, the lower their support for it goes. It sounds nice when glossed and in theory, but not when explained.
BTS
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hamilcarr
It need not be explicit.
It would be helpful if you could provide evidence.
This is a very bold claim I'll never accept. So again, I challenge the average JWD poster to decide.
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james_woods
Here is some evidence of the attitude - and it is not just this thread, but a political bias on this board in general:
Shaking head again......
James, pretty soon you will be using your vote as a lethal weapon. For God's sakes, do your country a favor and educate yourself politically and learn to think critically before you cast your vote. I am beginning to understand why incompetent government appeals to may Americans.
HS
I think that Hillary_Step meant to type many instead of may, but the colorization of the opinion remains intact and obvious. Contempt for Americans, in general, and contempt for anyone that does not subscribe to a liberal point of view. Anyone who does not agree with Hillary_Step simply needs to be "re-educated". Sounds a lot like Chairman Mao, or the Pol-Pot regime to me.
BTW, I am not shaking my head. It is not "spinning".
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hillary_step
James,
This is way off topic, but here we go:
I think that Hillary_Step meant to type many instead of may, but the colorization of the opinion remains intact and obvious. Contempt for Americans, in general, and contempt for anyone that does not subscribe to a liberal point of view. Anyone who does not agree with Hillary_Step simply needs to be "re-educated". Sounds a lot like Chairman Mao, or the Pol-Pot regime to me.
Yes, I did mean MANY, which does not mean ALL. You need to understand that the whole world has seen a faction of the US electorate the past eight years that have alarmed it, and justifiably so. Please read that line very carefully before you respond.
An incompetent government was elected, not just once but twice. Its level of incompetence is now a matter of public record worlwide, and many of those who voted for the present White House Administration, at least those who will admit to it, have realized the error of their ways. Each person that voted for the Bush Administration bears a measure of responsibility for their choice, that is what Democracy is all about.
While a certain element of the US electorate is justifiably criticized for its choices, especially the evangelical section, this does not mean that America is 'hated', or that the clued in part of the electorate is direspected.
Do I have any respect for the Bush Administration? Not in the slightest, and I never have had. Is it because it is made up of Americans. Not in the slightest. Is it because of politically ideological differences? Somewhat. Is it mainly due to a staggering level of incomptence which has cost the world dearly? Of course.
Most of my closest friends are Americans James, and they happen to agree with all that I write above. Does that make THEM anti-American? I suppose in your little world it does.
HS
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james_woods
Well, Hillary_Step is honest about his viewpoint, even if unbelievably arrogant.
Again, anyone who voted for Bush is an uneducated rube. Anyone who agrees with H_S and his liberal views are enlightened.
In the H_S world, (be it big or little - as that may be) - you simply cannot be educated, intellectual, or even functionally intelligent and still support a Republican Administration! I have a feeling that a denial of this will soon follow - so, let me ask in advance:
What was the last Republican Administration that you find to be competent?
BTW, I do not think that this sub-topic is really that far off-thread. I still think that this thread was intended largely as a rebuke to the United States for not joining the ICC, and that the enthusiasts for the ICC are predominately liberal in their basic view, and strong opponents of Bush and anyone who ever voted for him. I also think that part of this love for ICC is the secret hope that it could become a political weapon against the United States in those areas with which the left finds contemptuous about this country.
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hillary_step
James,
Well, Hillary_Step is honest about his viewpoint, even if unbelievably arrogant.
I take it from this knee-jerk, emotionally charged rebuttal that you voted for the Bush Administration....twice? 'Nuff said.
Again, anyone who voted for Bush is an uneducated rube. Anyone who agrees with H_S and his liberal views are enlightened.
They may have been politically uneducated. If evangelical, with a distinct agenda. If a brainless patriot, well...because they are a brainless patriot. Some vote based on family tradition. Some because they view politics like a lotto game. Some because they geniunely believed all the gunk fed them by the media marketing machine. There are many reasons why people vote James, I do not have a single track mind like your own. Try to get out of this silly little tribal mentality that holds you prisoner to your own ignorance James.
My argument is that a government was twice given power for all manner of reasons. The primary outcome of this government has been incompetence. If you voted for it, you too bear a responsibility for its failures.
In the H_S world, (be it big or little - as that may be) - you simply cannot be educated, intellectual, or even functionally intelligent and still support a Republican Administration! I have a feeling that a denial of this will soon follow - so, let me ask in advance:
What is the matter with you James? Why do you seek to simplify wide political issues into a 'fast food' style thinking? Are you really that gullible? You have put words into my mouth just to suit your own little worldview of what constitues a 'liberal' and a 'conservative'. Politics exists OUTSIDE of the US and I am OUTSIDE of the US. Do the decent thing before you engage others in political conversations and try to EDUCATE yourself BEYOND two party thinking and get a more catholic view of political ideologies.
What was the last Republican Administration that you find to be competent?
This is all about the present Government, not past governments. As I HAVE ALREADY NOTED each party has its strengths and weaknesses. I happen to think both parties and the electoral system are so badly flawed in the US that competency is more a matter of approximation than definition. What I do know is that the present Administration has broken the mould in its low level of competency, which I supposed goes to show that if you vote an untreated alchoholic who speaks to Jesus into a position of authority, you get what you pay for.
BTW, I do not think that this sub-topic is really that far off-thread. I still think that this thread was intended largely as a rebuke to the United States for not joining the ICC, and that the enthusiasts for the ICC are predominately liberal in their basic view, and strong opponents of Bush and anyone who ever voted for him.
It is way off-thread. What has been noted as a FACT on NUMEROUS occasions is that notably the US, China, Russia and Cuba have refused membership of the ICC.
I also think that part of this love for ICC is the secret hope that it could become a political weapon against the United States in those areas with which the left finds contemptuous about this country.
lol...What piffle James. This sort of patriotic paranoia is what got your nation into the chaotic quagmire that it finds itself it today. As I noted, before you vote again, educate yourself. Your political naievity and shocking gullibility has shone throughout this thread. HS
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hillary_step
Burn,
It need not be explicit. This thread is, as this board is, rife with anti-americanism. It is a cultural racism. It need not be explicit to exist. If an American disagrees it is because he is ignorant and stupid. This view itself stems from ignorance and propaganda. All too many Euros seem to look at us as some sort of a subcivilized horde. A bunch of materialistic gun toting mindless violent (yet somehow submissive and obedient!) consumers. While we are derided on the one hand as materialists (as recently posted here) on the other hand their spiritual interests and morality are laughed at. We are "ignorant and uninformed" about the outside world.
The truth is that a high proportion of Euros know very little about our history and culture and that we have a seperate existence apart from our roots over there. From our very beginnings, we endeavored mightily to separate ourselves from the wars and controversies embroiling the old world, and though we largely failed in the 20th century, the undercurrent still runs strong. Hence the skepticism of the ICC, a darling of the EU and a creature of the UN.
As for the ICC, to surrender our citizens to a foreign body not answerable to our people and to be submitted to a trial without a jury of peers is an ultraje of our most cherished laws and traditions. That was my point in my very first post on this thread. If you don't get that you don't understand us. We see the world in a different way from you. We don't have a contempt for law, but we do have a contempt for government, which is what ultimately enforces law in our world. Get it?
We were hammering and perfecting our democracy when your nations still had absolute monarchs ruling by divine right. HS, that noxious idiotic boor, levies claims that we need to learn democracy here. Huh? Germany and Italy have only had democracy since the 40's. Spain? 70's. UK still has titles of nobility. France is run not by votes but by riots and strikes.
As for this alleged American support of the ICC, I suspect these people are ill informed, the more Americans know about it, the lower their support for it goes. It sounds nice when glossed and in theory, but not when explained.
Shaking head.....
More idiotic a post I have not read in months. I am not even going to bother to respond to this frantic, naieve, vague, and over-emotional diatribe, not as you well know because I cannot, but because it is not worthy of my time. You have a lot to learn BurnTheShips and in ways that Wikipedia will not help.
I will just state that what is not nonsense in your post, is very close to it.
HS
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BurnTheShips
More idiotic a post I have not read in months
Apparently, you yourself are another one that doesn't bother to read your posts.
I am not even going to bother to respond to this frantic, naieve, vague, and over-emotional diatribe
Well, you just did genius.
BTS
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hillary_step
In conclusion.
What we have seen on this thread is the spectre of two loyal US 'patriots' who will oppose any argument, whether correct or incorrect, sound or unsound and do so to the point of being prepared to be seen as complete fools by all onlookers. This just to remain loyal to their own concept of what the USA stands for.
Not one hundred miles from what we all learned as 'loyal' adherents of the WTS, is it. I feel as if I have had a visit from two door to door preachers, as ever prepared to defend the indefensible by any manner or means. One does all the speaking and the other joins in from time to time, much to the embarrassment of his partner.
HS