Blind salamanders - any creationists up to a challenge?

by sir82 40 Replies latest jw friends

  • maximumtool
    maximumtool

    M.J. -

    If you are looking for the spontaneous generation of new functionality, bacteria have been observed in nature to mutate new genetic information to be used in the consumption of new, and often completely unnatural, potential food supplies.

    For example, a strain of Flavobacterium became capable of digesting nylon within forty years of the creation of nylon. Nylon, as you may or may not know, does not exist in nature and the mechanisms to digest it on a populational level did not exist prior to its existence. Within four decades, and possibly sooner (it was only noticed after four decades), this inviduals within this particular strain had undergone a frame shift mutation which allowed for new codons to be expressed leading to new functionality. Basically, the strain had added a new thymine nucleotide to its DNA.

    What happens in a frame shift mutation is that nucleotides are either added or removed. This occurs commonly in nature, and usually has negative consequences for the organism. The reason for this is that genes are expressed in groups of threes, called codons, and if you add or take away a nucleotide, you not only alter the expression locally, but you can affect the entire genetic expression of an organism because the frame of expression shifts to accomodate the new, or deleted, nucleotide.

    In this particular case, you had a group of bacteria exposed to nylon, and there was little else that they could consume. Naturally, most of the bacteria died of nothing more then starvation. It was due to the fact there was an existing bacterium or group of individuals that could break down nylon, which they were exposed to afterwards, that they could digest it when the rest of their local population could not. They thus survived to pass on these genes and a new strain emerged. Scientists have since then been able to induce this exact adaptation in other strains of bacteria, thus displaying the genetic flexibility of bacteria in general and showing the adaptive ability of nature.

    This specific ability has probably emerged several times in nature. It was just that there was no nylon to consume and so it did not offer a survival advantage that could then be passed on. But that is the entire point of what evolution through natual selection is saying. If your genes cause you to be able to adapt better to your constantly changing environment you stand a better chance of being able to survive and thus pass on your genes. This leads to the biological diversity that we see on our planet today.

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Good food for thought MT.

    I found this referenced here, under "The Nylon Problem".

    http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/050923_ID_science.html

    I'll qualify myself by stating that I'm strictly a layperson when it comes to genetics and biology (I'm more computer oriented, I guess)...but offhand I would ask if nylonase was close enough to other existing enzymes to allow for a micro-evolution solution to the problem...rather than the generation of an all new genetic program. I'll have to read up on "thymine nucleotide", etc.

    As I said, I will try and understand the issue here more fully.

  • FlipThis
    FlipThis

    I'm not a creationist; but this seems like the worst case of proof of evolution.

    Birth defects get passed down from generation to generation all the time...

  • maximumtool
    maximumtool

    Flip This,

    To classify mutations as "birth defects" is to automatically put a negative connotation onto a condition that could be either postive or negative, considering it is usually only our perspective which causes us to consider something to be positive or negative. And what is one day a "birth defect" could the next be a survival advantage. Stop and think about the words 'natural selection.' Our environment does the selecting as to who does the surviving, or has the best chance of survival, and our environment is constantly changing.

    Here is a great example, achondroplasia is an autosomal genetic disorder that causes one of the more common forms of dwarfism. This is caused by a mutation in a fibrolast growth receptor, which leads to abnormalities in cartilage formation. Most would consider it a "birth defect". However, if suddenly there were to be an environmental change that caused individuals with this "defect" to suddenly have an advantage over people who do not have it, then you would begin to see this mutation expressed throughout a greater percentage of the population as more and more survivors lived to spread their genes.

    You see what I mean?

    So they arent birth defects by definition. It is that these mutations when expressed in our present environment may not at that time lend a survival advantage, and they will usually provide a disadvantage, and in that particular case we would consider them to be birth defects.

  • sir82
    sir82
    To classify mutations as "birth defects" is to automatically put a negative connotation onto a condition that could be either postive or negative

    Another good example is sickle cell anemia.

    People living in sub-Saharan Africa developed a genetic variation in which they became more resistent to malaria (rather a necessity if you're going to survive in sub-Sharan Africa).

    However, for those who have emigrated to areas where malaria is not common, this trait does more harm than good, potentially causing sickle-cell anemia.

    Is this genetic mutation a "birth defect"? Depends on where you live!

  • maximumtool
    maximumtool

    M.J. -

    Thank you for the compliment. And believe me, if you can get computers you can get this. People tend to overcomplicate this... :)

    Nylonase is just an enzyme plain and simple, and it has been coached to being expressed in other bacterium simply by placing them in an environment where they had nothing else around but nylon. The bacteria either had the mutation to consume nylon or they didnt, and thus they survived and reproduced or they didnt. And it was not that that mutation was just laying around there waiting for us to make nylon.

    Here is an example, we could come up with a new cloth/material called xyz in eighty years. This could be a material, like nylon, that does not exist in nature, and we will be introducing something completely knew to the environment, thus changing it, just like we did with nylon. Now right now, there could be bacterium that have the genes to consume xyz because they just happen to. These bacteria will see no survival advantage through this, and if they are still alive, they will probably see no dissadvantage. What will happen? These traits will get reabsorbed into the population and will spread about as effectively as other useless traits. Then more bacteria will appear with this same mutation, and others, and they will dissapear back into the population because no advantage was offered and the trait is still useless. But, when we change the environment by producing xyz eighty years from now, like we did with nylon, then that trait is no longer useless. Then when bacteria are confined to an environment with just xyz as a potential food source you can see the emergence of a new strain. See what I mean? So is nylonase close to other existing enzymes? Yes. But that is not the point. It was suddenly that the environment changed to where that enzyme was suddenly useful. These same bacteria have mutated and either died as a result, or discarded and moved on, from other such mutations that would have allowed them to consume materials we have not yet introduced into the environment. Now on to your actual question...

    I dont mean this in a condescending way at all, so please dont take it that way, but you gave me the courtesy of a direct reply, so I will do the same for you. The issue you seem to be having is that you want to create a line in the sand between Micro and Macro evolution. But your own definitions of micro and macro evolution are a contradiction against reality, and you seem to be attempting to compartmentalize terms into boxes they were never meant to be confined into. While not uncommon, this stems from a misunderstanding of how genes are expressed.

    You ask me if nylonase would be close enough to other enzymes to allow for a micro-evolution solution to the problem, and I assume by that that you mean it according to your personal definition of microevolution, which is "Micro evolution is the natural optimization of the parameters of EXISTING genetic functions...otherwise known as natural selection." The answer to your question is "no", but your definition is also not correct. For starters, this particular strain of flavobacterium could not have digested nylon without the introduction of this new thymine nucleotide.

    This is about as bare bones as one can do it, and not accurate for more then illustrative purposes, but I think that this will help it make sense. Nucleotides are grouped up in threes and then expressed. So lets say I have genetic sequence (this is very simplistic): AGT TCT AGC TTG GCA and on. Now lets introduce a Thymine nucleotide in codon three...what happens? That same sequence becomes AGT TCT ATG CTT GGC A...

    It isnt hard to see why most mutations of this type, known as a frame shift, have negative outcomes for the organism. But on the rare occasion they are not immediately fatal, and in rarer cases they lend a survival advantage, based on the environment at that time. Make sense?

    Now back to your definition(s), which for simplicities sake I will restate here:

    Micro evolution is the natural optimization of the parameters of EXISTING genetic functions...otherwise known as natural selection.

    Macro evolution would be the spontaneous generation of entirely new functions.

    Natural Selection occurs when the environment lends an advantage or a disadvantage to your survivability as an individual, thus allowing you to live long enough to spread your traits through the population. Your "existing" genetic makeup will help you live, or be the reason that you die sooner. You received most of your "existing" traits from your parents, and a few of them from mutations. If you are healthy in our present environment, then most likely any mutations you have were not expressed, or have no direct survival advantages or disadvantages. If the ozone layer dissapears tomorrow and everyone gets skin cancer but you, then those mutations at that time give you a survival advantage and your children will probably enjoy the same benefits (assuming you are not the only person to survive). This mutation may or may not be the result of new genetic information, but regardless your survivability would be the result of natural selection.

    Your attempt to confine natural selection into the box of micro evolution is not appropriate, and I would speculate that it comes from your own stance which is one where you dont want your particular definition of "macro" evolution to exist, as in the "spontaneous generation of new functions". It is from here that your understanding of what evolution actually is seems to derail.

    It is not that we are looking for the spontaneous generation of new functions, as most functions will never be expressed since the environment usually doesnt allow for it, and usually kills you for acquiring the trait. But it is the slow accumulation of changes over time, like what we all see everywhere, that leads to what we define as speciation.

    Did I answer your question? If not, please let me know how I didnt and I will make another attempt...

  • dawg
    dawg

    Species defined is this... "the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.

    My Biology book from college says they "can't or won't produce offspring"...

    To whomever said this isn't a "new species"... yes it is... in that they do not mate with other salamanders.

    I could go into genetic drift here, but I think this makes the point well enough.

  • trevor
    trevor

    M.J. Made the definitive statement:

    Micro evolution is the natural optimization of the parameters of EXISTING genetic functions...otherwise known as natural selection.

    Macro evolution would be the spontaneous generation of entirely new functions.

    May I throw a few tape worms into the ring?

    Why would a loving god create such parasites that are harmful to the host?

    What purpose do they serve except self preservation and they are blind too.

    'What a tangled webb we weave, when we practise to deceive.'

  • dawg
    dawg

    There are 500 different species of Salamanders... one is the Texas Blind Salamander...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Blind_Salamander

    It is defiantly a new species...

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    To whomever said this isn't a "new species"... yes it is... in that they do not mate with other salamanders.

    Do they not mate due to being in a different environment, or because they are genetically incompatible?

    Examples of genetic drift regarding amphibians have been used on this board before, and I have found them suspect. Supposedly incompatible "species" could in fact interbreed.

    BTS

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