That's funny... My "friend" did the exact same thing... He cut me from facebook, blocked me from instant messenger and will NOT talk to me... What a sad "religion" that encourages this kind of behaviour...
I'm not good association......
by Switch 33 Replies latest jw experiences
-
-
wings
Hi Switch!
Even though we know to expect the rejection that comes from being honest about our beliefs, with me it always surprises me how much it hurts when it actually happens. I understand how you feel. I am sorry for you and Missing Link.
At least we have each other!
wings -
MissingLink
In case anyone cares to see another example of spewing the standard cult line - I'm going to post how the conversation went.
1st message from "friend"
Dear (MissingLink) and (Switch): So I don't really know how to approach this other than to just be to the point. I hope that I don't offend you and please correct me if I'm wrong.
I need to know where you both stand as to Jehovah and His organization. Do you believe that Jehovah is directing us through His earthly organization? I've read (MissingLink)'s reviews on Facebook of the Creation book and The Finished Mystery. Do you really feel that way? Also, (Switch) made a comment about the Society taking advantage of anything it can to encourage that we are at the end that seemed a little off.
I don't want you guys to think that I'm trying to be critical of you or anything like that. I love you both very much. You've been such great friends and I want us to be able to be friends. But, again I need to know that you loyally support Jehovah and His organization. If I've misread or misinterpreted what you've said, please tell me. I sincerly apologize if that is the case.
Please know that I love you both very much
-
MissingLink
My initial reply
You probably know that I haven't been a hard-core JW in quite a while. I pioneered in my late teens, and that was a really bad experience for me spritually. But I kept with it. Well with the kids getting bigger and asking tough questions, it's made me do some serious thinking. Especially about shunning my DF sister for the past 17 years. This has always been nagging at me, that I'm judging her, or trying to punish her. Last time we talked we were teenagers. I don't even know her. I talked to my dad (an elder) and told him about my doubts. He suggested I start from the beginning, and really study things. Not just look at the surface, but dig deep. You must agree that this can't be a bad thing. This is exactly what I did.Study has always been hard for me. I find ancient history very boring generally. So I thought I'd start with a subject closer to my interests to ease into this - Evolution/Creation. This has been in the media quite a bit lately. I got the Evolution book and did an in-depth study. After the first two chapters I was literaly sick to my stomach. It all looks good when you simply read it and answer the questions at the bottom, but when you look up the references and research the topics it's a totally different picture. I couldn't believe that God's organization could put out such blatant lies. I tried to think: maybe they were just mistaken. But no, these deceptions were so craftily done, there is no way it could be by accident. Can you imagine what that felt like? I didn't know what to do. I was afraid to talk to anyone for fear of being labeled "apostate" for having doubts and finding fault. I couldn't even talk to Laura for months. I felt like I was dieing. But what would Jesus do? What DID he do when he saw that the leaders of God's people in his day were misleading the people? Just HOPE that they don't lie any more? I can tell you I was angry that our governing body would do this. How could they claim to represent god at the same time printing lies? If I'm wrong here Janie - please prove it to me. Look at the Creation book yourself. Look up the sited references (this does require a heck of a lot of work I know). And tell me what I've got wrong.
Then there was the revelation book. This is really hard to dig into. I mean, you really gotta just trust their interpretation of it. But that book said that "The Finished Mystery" was basically one of the most important books ever written. Remember, Jesus chose this organization in 1919 after doing a review of the worlds religions. So - obviously what he saw in the Bible Students back then he must have liked. The last book printed by the Bible Students before this "choosing" was "The Finished Mystery". The Proclaimers book says about it: "what they [Studies in the Scriptures series] contained was, indeed, 'spiritual food at the proper time". All I can say is - Read it! Why not? The current revelation book gives it the thumbs up. Jesus loved it. Why won't you read it and find out for yourself? If your kingdom hall doesn't have a copy - I can tell you where you can get it online. All of the old books have expired copyrights, and various libraries have digital copies available online for free. I think I got my PDF of it from the library of Canada or the Oxford library, but I can track it down again if you want me to. Write your own book review to rebut mine. I'm not looking for an argument here I hope you realize. I haven't had anyone except Laura to talk to about these things. Since the cat's out of the bag with you, I really welcome your opinion.
I've wanted to talk to our local elders, but am terrified that they will put a label on me that doesn't allow my friends to talk to me for fear that I might discuss these things with them. It feels like free thought just isn't allowed. But if it's "truth", then why can't it stand up to scrutiny? I'm getting too old to be living a double-life. I think that every man should feel free say what he thinks, and have open discussion, and not be in fear of other men. This certainly seemed to be the way in the bible (like the Boreans). "The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life" says on page 13 "We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with whichwe may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God's Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination." I was certainly raised with the idea that "truth" was to be sought above everything else. I have no bad motives here, I only want to find out what is true. And this has led me to some disturbing realities which has been a nightmare to face. But I know that I can't just bury my head in the sand. I have to do what's right for my kids sake, even if it's not easy for me.
How can I not think you're not being critical? You deleted me as your friend. I've disagreed with you before. I've given you advice that you didn't like, and you to me. This has always been with the best interest of each other in mind. And this is what friends do. But I would never say that we can't be friends over a disagreement. We both love you very much too. (Switch) considers you her closest friend. Whatever you choose to do, we will never turn our backs on you, and you will always be more than welcome here.
Your Loving Friend
(MissingLink) -
MissingLink
"Freind"'s response
I just wanted to let you both know that I got your emails. I must tell you that I am very sad and sorry that you guys are making this choice. I do love you guys so much and have cherished our friendship. I don't consider myself as someone that has a lot of very close friends but have always considered you guys close friends. It's with a heavy heart that I tell you that I can't continue association with you if you don't support Jehovah and His organization. I understand that you may have doubts. I know that there are many things a person could look at in the organziation and find fault with but ultimately it boils down to are you following man or Jehovah. Jehovah has always used imperfect men to lead his people. Yes it's true that those imperfect men have made mistakes and not always done things in the most loving way. I'm not just talking about modern times but all through Bible history. Jehovah's earthly organization didn't just start in 1914. It's always been here in some form. Look at the mistakes the apostles themselves made. They had to be corrected and they accepted that correction. Jehovah's modern day organization has been and is being corrected by Jehovah as well.
I know that you both feel that you have vaild points of argument. However, I do not agree. I've read all the articles on education the same as you. I really don't care what the world has to say about education. I do know that the articles I read gave a balanced view of higher education and never once said that it was wrong in itself. The faithful slave tells us to consider our motives and if our relationship with Jehovah will suffer. The Bible principles are presented but ultimatley the decision is left to the family. If things were misquoted, then I'm sure Jehovah will take care of it. In the end, what does the Bible say? As far as The Finished Mystery is concerned, I don't want to read it. I can't even keep up with my life now. I do know that the faithful slave has time and again published the fact that there are wrong things in that publication. The WT 3/15/00 pg 13 gives a very good example of that. The fact is, Jehovah chooses to reveal Bible truths as he sees fit and as it serves his purpose. The Bible tells us plainly that Jehovah reveals things to his people progressivly. Look at the way Jesus revealed things to his disciples, not all at once but gradually and as Jehovah purposed. So what if there are things we don't understand fully. The fact is where else will you learn the truth about who Jehovah is and what kind of god he is, who Jesus is and the importance of his sacrifice, the truth about hellfire, the trinity, the condition of the dead, and the list goes on. On the other side of Armageddon I have no doubt that we will see that we had several things not quite right, but who cares. The most important things are right and that's what counts to me. I do not serve a man or group of men. I serve Jehovah and he tells me that he has a faithful and discreet slave that I should follow and be obedient to. That's what I intend to do. I have faith that Jehovah is leading his people through the organization and that this is the truth beyond a doubt. Even when I don't fully understand something or like it, I think of John 6:66-69. Where else will we go? You both said that you wanted what's best for the kids. But if you leave Jehovah, what future are you giving them? What else is there?
I guess in the end, I'm begging you both to reconsider your choices. Please give the brothers a chance to talk to you. I love you both and pray that you will at least consider what I've said.
love,
(friend) -
MissingLink
My final reply
We're very sad that you choose to judge us as unworthy of your friendship over this difference of opnion. If you would prefer to never discuss religion, we would accept that. Thats basically where we are with my parents. Religion is just off the table. And our relationship is actually much better now. I hope you at least read this last message. I read yours and thought about it, please show me the same courtesy.
We've weighed the positives and negatives of this religion, and for us the negatives far outweigh the positives. We're giving our children a normal life. Not one where they have to "make a stand" daily and constantly judge and hate the good people around them. They can play sports if they want (I wasn't allowed). They won't have constant feelings of guilt and fear of punishment for doing normal things. We're giving them an Aunt, Uncle, and two cousins who love them and who otherwise they would be looking forward to seeing destoryed by god. Shunning is a sick non-biblical teaching of men that destroys families and hardens the hearts of those going along with it. I was one of them. And I'm just sick of judging other people and hating them.
We're giving our kids choices on education and goals. You say that we have a choice on education. I remember differently. I had a close friend choose college, and his entire family was blacklisted for this. They were all considered bad association by the entire congregation. I wanted to go to college, but knew that I couldn't do this to my family. The organization lightened up in the 90s, and like you, I had hope that the "light was getting brighter". But then there was the big clamp down in the 2000s. Sure - technically it's still a conscience matter. But we all know what that means - the conscience of those around us, not us ourselves. Elders and ministerial servants are now being removed if they don't discourage education, or if they support their own children going to college (this was in the elder/ms outline in the last CO visit).
You said to give the brothers a change to talk to us. I'm totally open to that, I would talk to anyone. This is the only way to get to the bottom of things - by discussing them. But you know what - when we stopped going to meetings (we never said anything negative, just stopped going) - NOBODY has talked to us since. Not one person has asked how we are or tried to help at all. They all just started shunning us too! We tried to visit [list of friends], and they were visibly uncomfortable to have us in their homes because they considered us spiritually weak or something. And these were our "friends"?
I think it's really sad that you cant make the time to read your own publications - especially one so pivital in world history. And it's really sad that you can just accept the lies being told (creation book) without any apology from those men, and silently hope that some day it'll be corrected. When people tell you "beware thinking" - it's time to be worried Janie. Things are certainly changing in the organization, and not for the better.
You might want to re-read John 6:66-69. It doesn't say WHERE would we go. It actually says "TO WHOM" would we go to (besides Jesus). Common mistake.
I don't mean any of this to change your mind. I know it wont. I only hope you understand our motives. We're getting on with our lives and really enjoying it for a change. If you ever change your mind about shunning us - know that we will not hold a grudge against you. We understand where your mind is. We would welcome you back as a friend at any time regardless of your religious views.
-
Quirky1
According to the JW's I'm not good association either.
-
Hope4Others
The faithful slave tells us to consider our motives and if our relationship with Jehovah will suffer. The Bible principles are presented but ultimatley the decision is left to the family. If things were misquoted, then I'm sure Jehovah will take care of it. In the end, what does the Bible say? As far as The Finished Mystery is concerned, I don't want to read it. I can't even keep up with my life now.
Quite all telling isn't it......
Shunning is a sick non-biblical teaching of men that destroys families and hardens the hearts of those going along with it. I was one of them. And I'm just sick of judging other people and hating them.
I like that....
You said to give the brothers a change to talk to us. I'm totally open to that, I would talk to anyone. This is the only way to get to the bottom of things - by discussing them. But you know what - when we stopped going to meetings (we never said anything negative, just stopped going) - NOBODY has talked to us since. Not one person has asked how we are or tried to help at all. They all just started shunning us too! We tried to visit [list of friends], and they were visibly uncomfortable to have us in their homes because they considered us spiritually weak or something. And these were our "friends"?
Same thing happened with us...common trait, but I think if you are the kind of person that will not back down they tend to be afraid of you, for fear of being proved
wrong with their own bible and publications...hubby has a fine knack for this...lol
You might want to re-read John 6:66-69. It doesn't say WHERE would we go. It actually says "TO WHOM" would we go to (besides Jesus). Common mistake.
This one always works...
Well happily you have each other thats the greatest achievement to have your immediate family and the one you love in your corner......
Cheers!
hope4others
-
sweet pea
Very eloquently put ML. It never ceases to amaze me what a great mind control job the society has done with our loved ones.
Unfortunately you're both dealing with strong cult personalities - the real Janie is underneath somewhere and you may meet her again one day. You never know what will start her thinking.
I remember self righteously telling my sister a couple of years ago that we couldn't be close as sisters because "she had left Jehovah" - she's a fader. Now I cringe at the memory.
A few weeks ago a friend pm'd me on Facebook to say she'd been disfellowshipped. She was nervous about getting in touch with me because she thought I might hate her for shunning me. Those hurt feelings fade away completely when the real friend comes back to us. The way I view all my old mates now is like money in a high interest savings account - I can't touch it right now but one day.....
You will both make new friends that will make up for the loss to some extent and these friendships will be deeper and just as precious. It's hard at the beginning though when you have no 'history' with anyone. It's a weird feeling. Like being reborn or going down the snake and starting the game again.
If you ever fancy a trip to California, Besty, I and the podlets would love to have you over.....
Well done for making such a brave stand - your children will never fully realise how lucky they are and how thankful they should be to you for breaking the cycle!
-
milligal
Just adding my two cents...hang in there. It does hurt more at first but the hurt fades, then you realize how much better it is to be yourself. REALLY be yourself, and not have to say and do things because it's what's expected of you (look what happens when you behave outside of their expectations).
Your life will keep getting better (with a few rough spots) but you are now able to live honestly and that is worth losing a few 'friends' over......