Revelation 7

by RR 26 Replies latest jw friends

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  RR

  A few weks ago, the Bible STudent group I affiliate with had their annual convention. The convention itself has been uplaoded to the net. There is an interesting panel discussion on Revelation 7 on the identity of the 144,000 and the great crowd. The link to the panel is: http://www.millennialmorning.org/audio/revelation7.wma

  The link to the entire program is at http://www.millennialmorning.org/conventions/

  Just for the record, who do you say are these two groups?

  ____________________________
  "Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional."
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  CatholicGuy

  My understanding:

  The 144,000 are all the people of God from the Old and New Testaments.

  symbolic numbers (12 and 12,000 and 144,000)

  144,000 = (12 x 12) x (10 x 10 x 10) or

  (12 tribes = OT peoples) x (12 apostles = NT Church) x

  (10 x 10 x 10 = completeness to the third power)

  We see these symbolic numbers again in describing when the New Jerusalem descends to earth: 12 gates, 12,000 furlongs and 144 cubits (see Rev. 21:16-21).

  The "great multitude" are heavenly (see Rev. 19:1)

  I view the 144,000 as picturing the symbolic total of God's people *on earth*. Notice that John only "hears" the number of the 144,000. (Rev 7:4) He doesn't describe "seeing" them. After he hears their number he `looked and beheld' the great multitude before the throne and the Lamb. (Rev 7:9) The great multitude are the same group (all of God's people) but viewed after the "great tribulation." The 144,000 is the Church militant. The "great multitude" is the Church triumphant.

  Compare the same literary device used to describe:

  John hears about the Lion of the tribe of Judah (Rev 5:5)

  but he `looked and beheld' the Lamb (Rev 5:6)

  CatholicGuy

  not my webpage but a favorite:
  http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
• 

  perfectpie

  Hey senor, thanks for the great question, I've been studying this chapter recently. My computer couldn't handle the download on the site you offered. Could you please give a brief summation on J.W.com

  If so thanks alot
  3.14
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  RR

  Download? You don't need to download, if you have Windows media player, it should play off the net. But in any event. AFter excamining every aspect of who they could be and where they could be,a nd then taking additional questions from the audience, the consensus by thye panel is that the 144,000 represents the Church and that the great crowd is a heavenly class.

  ____________________________
  "Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional."
• 

  joelbear

  RR,

  Whose gonna live on the new earth then?
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  aChristian

  Joel,

  You asked, "Whose gonna live on the new earth then?"

  I believe your question springs from the Watchtower Society's teaching that God will soon kill everyone on earth except true Christians. Fortunately, the Bible does not teach that. I believe that when Christ returns He will judge only the Christian world. Two-thirds of the earth's population has never even heard the good news of Jesus Christ, including billions of people in lands like China and India. The Watchtower Society teaches that God will soon kill all of these people. I think they are wrong. This does not sound like the God of love, justice and mercy I worship.

  One thing that leads me to believe this is an incorrect understanding of scripture is that that the Bible tells us that "Judgment begins with the house of God." (1 Peter 4:17) Jesus also said those who will rule as kings with Him will "judge the 12 tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:30) To me this indicates that when Christ returns and draws all true Christians to Himself (Matt. 24:31), they will then determine who among those who have heard the good news of Jesus Christ and not taken it to heart are deserving of death. "The 12 tribes of Israel," spoken of in Luke 22:30, I believe refers to all those who have heard the good news preached by those whom Galatians 6:16 calls "the Israel of God." Remember, the literal "12 tribes of Israel" had all heard the Law of Moses, but few had taken it to heart.

  Remember too that it was only the city of Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 AD, not the entire Roman empire, after those in Jerusalem who heeded Christ's words of warning had escaped. And First Century Jerusalem has long been understood to picture the Christian world, or as Jehovah's Witnesses call it, "Christendom."

  Also to be considered is a fact known by most serious students of the Bible, history and science. The flood of Noah's day was a local event, not a global one. God brought that judgment only upon a land that had heard the message of "Noah, a preacher of righteousness," and failed to respond to it. (2 Pet. 2:5) God did not take the lives of those in other parts of then widely populated earth who had not heard Noah's preaching.

  Interestingly, Revelation chapters 8 and 9 talk quite a bit about "a third of the world" being judged. And by population, the part of the world claiming Christianity as its religion is almost exactly one-third. (See The World Almanac 1998, page 654)

  If this understanding is correct, that Christ is returning to judge only the Christian world, then Christians, who all have the same "one hope," will then have plenty of people to rule over as they serve as kings with Christ for 1,000 years. And they will also then have plenty of people to help come to know the true God as they serve as His "priests." For that is, after all, what priests do.

  The Bible does not tell us exactly what will happen in the future. Because it does not, the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses and my beliefs on this subject matter, which I have just presented, can only be considered speculation. However, I believe that Jehovah's Witnesses should be made aware that there are other ways to understand God's clearly stated intentions to have the meek inherit the earth (Ps. 37:11), and His intentions to have all Christians rule with Christ for 1,000 years, than to change the good news preached by the apostles which offered the same "one hope" to all Christians. (Eph.4:4-6; Gal.1:8,9)

  "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
  (1 Cor. 1:18)

  Mike
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  joelbear

  So, 1/3 of humanity goes to heaven to be kings over the 2/3 who happen to have been born into non-Christian cultures and the other 2/3 live on the new earth that is turned into a paradise?

  What happens at the end of the 1000 years. Do the non christians that convert get to go to heaven then?
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  RR

  Joel, God is dealing with only one group of people, those who will make a covenant of sacrifice. The whole purpose of this, what we cal;l the Gsopel Age is to gather the Lord's peole together, those who will reigtn with Christ in heaven. This body, with Jesus as head will then help mankind up the highway to holiness, taht is the millennial kingdom. So to answer your question, who lives on earth? everyone ELSE!

  ____________________________
  "Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional."
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  joelbear

  God already has millions of angels in heaven. Why does he need people from earth to rule as kings there.

  Why did god put people on earth to begin with if he was just going to end up taking some to heaven.

  Doesn't make any sense.

  Joel
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  aChristian

  Joel,

  You wrote, "So, 1/3 of humanity goes to heaven to be kings over the 2/3 who happen to have been born into non-Christian cultures and the other 2/3 live on the new earth that is turned into a paradise?"

  First off, I believe only a part of the 1/3 of humanity who now claim Christianity as their religion will rule with Christ. Those who Christ judges to be true Christians.

  You also asked, "God already has millions of angels in heaven. Why does he need people from earth to rule as kings there. Why did god put people on earth to begin with if he was just going to end up taking some to heaven."

  The answer to this question may lie in remembering that most translations of the Bible tell us that those who serve as kings and priests with Christ will do so, "on the earth." (Rev. 5:10) If this is the correct translation of the Greek, then "heaven" for Christians may simply represent a new position of spiritual authority, not a new location. The NWT is nearly alone in translating Rev. 5:10 as, "over the earth" rather than "on the earth." It does so, I believe, to support the Watchtower Society's two classes of Christians doctrine.

  And you asked, "What happens at the end of the 1000 years. Do the non christians that convert get to go to heaven then?"

  I believe that at that time all believers will be equals, and that those who become Christians during the Millennium will have the same reward for all eternity as those who became God's servants hundreds and thousands of years earlier. Revelation 21 indicates that at the end of the Millennium "New Jerusalem" will descend from heaven and God will then dwell with mankind. At that time we are told there will be both "a new heaven and a new earth." Since heaven and earth as we now know them will then no longer even exist, the question that we should probably now be asking is not where we will be but what we will be. Possibly with this fact in mind, the apostle John wrote, "Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him." (1 John 3:2)