I can see that if you could could concisely add up the numbers. This alone is enough, prove that the truth is not THE truth.
Funny thing is, in the hundreds of hours I counted on the ministry I can only count a couple of instances where I had a genuine conversation. Most where simply dealing with objections, talking at someone or placing litrature that would no doubt navigate itself swiftly to the bin.
Even those conversations where with people who insisted they had seen Jesus or some other insane comment.
JKMX
Statistical evidence against WTS fulfillment of Mat24:14. Simple argument.
by Awakened at Gilead 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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jakmarx
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james_woods
Blondie's quote is one that came up again and again on this argument. "not every individual must be preached to face to face".
But it brings up an argument all on it's own - if Jehovah can make discretionary judgements on the part of people in Red China or North Korea, or most of the Islam World - then why didn't he just do discretionary judgements on everybody in North America and Europe?
Think about it - us Americans have had the worst lot of any nation in the world - vis a vis the JWs. We had to accept their message ad hoc, then copy their example and preach our guts out for years, most of us will end up dying before the NW came ( a cynic would say all of us, but that is outside my argument)...etc. Western Europeans did not much have to put up with the JW rules until maybe the 1930s...Americans have had this since the late 1800s.
Now a simple Chinese farmer type, like say Paul Muni in "The Good Earth", could just go about his usual business, and suddenly when it all comes to pass, presumably if he was any good in the first place, God would know that and save him on basic human merit.
This is a bummer - no five meetings a week...no sitting in the hot sun all day at assembly, no field service, no risk on blood transfusions - no nothing. Yet still we are led to believe that such relatively "good people" in such places get saved free gratis...???
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blondie
Actually, james_wood those people DIE because of not being baptized jws, despite the fact that no jw even called on the once. The mark of salvation mentioned in Ezekiel 9:4-6, per the WTS, is baptism as a jw. So they are all doomed and even without have heard the "message." That is what is so bloodthirsty about the WTS doctrine.
*** w82 2/15 p. 31 par. 18 "What Prevents Me from Getting Baptized?" ***Only those ‘marked’ for salvation will survive into his new order. (Revelation 7:3, 4, 9, 14; Ezekiel 9:2-6) How happy will be those who have submitted to this ‘marking’ for survival because of being accepted into a dedicated relationship with Jehovah God, as symbolized by water baptism, and continuing in integrity on the narrow road that leads to life!—Matthew 7:13, 14.
*** wt chap. 13 p. 124 par. 10 A Great Crowd Before Jehovah’s Throne ***Those of the great crowd are pictured as being marked for survival. (Ezekiel 9:4-6) "The mark" is the evidence that they are dedicated to Jehovah, baptized as disciples of Jesus, and involved in cultivating a Christlike personality.
*** km 10/87 p. 8 par. 7 Help Others to Dedication and Baptism ***Only those ‘marked’ for salvation will survive into Jehovah’s new system. (Ezek. 9:2-6) How happy those who submit to this ‘marking’ for survival will be because of their dedicated relationship with Jehovah God, as symbolized by water baptism!
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jakmarx
"When they persecute YOU in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to YOU, YOU will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives." (Matthew 10:23)
Thats where they get they not completing the preaching work from...
To be honest, as per usual the arguments are based on higher understand that don't seem to grasp. Probally some parralel prophecy with double inverted fullfillment. Kind of crazy to deduce from one line of scripture that the majority of the earth are likely to die.
The Airian race thing comes to mind...
Still though, the WTBS always say that "Everyone will know that Jehovahs name is Jehovah" & his name will be vindicated and so on. -
james_woods
Well, Blondie - I guess that it would just be too forgiving and reasonable for them to be forgiving and reasonable on this issue.
I personally was never really clear on this in my mid 60s to mid 70s years - a lot of the rank and file pretty much said that people in Red China could somehow be saved and we should just "trust in Jehovah as a merciful God". It was a big deal back then (before Nixon went to China, and there were maybe 2 witness missionaries in all of China and both of them were in jail).
Come to think of it, I have only seen a general stir of rank & file doubt about two subjects in all my time around them - this "message has been preached already" thing, when it was obvious to a simpleton that we had not reached all of the Gobi desert, Tibet, etc. This got explained away by the weasel wording, while the raw truth was they didn't care - these unpreached to people were going to get nuked.
The other one was that revisionism on the possiblity that Adam might get resureccted. A lot of resentment attached itself to that one.
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james_woods
Well, I meant to say two doctrinal issues - excluding the failure of 1975, of course.
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sir82
Comment 1: Virtually all witnessing is done in pairs, So your 600 million hours is really 300 million "unique" hours...both JWs at your door are counting their time.
Comment 2: Another interesting angle is to count up how many billions of people earthwide are not being given even the remotest chance at listening to the message. Count up the world's population from the yearbook report, and subtract that from 6.6 billion. The difference is (primarily) the number of people living in China and various Muslim countries. There are a few thousand JWs listed as being publishers in these "other countries".
Then, for fun, throw in the 1 billion+ in India, and the mere 25,000 or so JWs living there...throw in Bangladesh & a few other places, and you end up with well over 2.5 billion people, and maybe 40,000 or so JWs to cover that "territory". If those JWs work in pairs, each pair needs to call on about 125,000 persons. Think they'll cover that in a year? Or even a decade?
Meanwhile, in some neighborhoods in NYC, people get called on literally every week.
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jakmarx
“Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9
Another chestnut that used frequently.
Ok.. lets talk about growth.
Using http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/statistics.htm & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses as a quick reference.
I'm just comparing, with the information on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
To busy to make anything, conclusive. I seriously doubt the that ministry is increasing, As much as the opulation growth.
While i'd never realistically expect the majority to become JW's. It does seem harsh that billions will apparently die because they are not JW's.
That aside it does seem that a large section human population does seem deathbound. I wouldnt want to be on the earth when it reaches a stupid level of population.
Maybe we will colonise other planets? maybe the creator will step in? or maybe the earth will simply become over populated resulting billions of deaths anyway? the fact is I dont know. Yet the numbers clearly show, that what Jehovah's Witnesses believe about the big A. Might not be true.
Anyway i dont want to go off topic.
Even if you are a baptised jehovah's witness, like myself. In theory i will be destroyed at armageddon. Even though i have a led a mostly moral lifestyle (secret of porn & masturbation). Plus i know quite a few who would also die in theory.
If it goes to the JW plan of things... humans will be an endagered species. -
daniel-p
I think we all make the mistake of thinking the Society even has a consistent stance on this. All the different lines of thought we have testify to the fact that they don't know what their own doctrine really is on this.
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jakmarx
true..
Just hard to let go of the "truth" sometimes.
This information is good for opening my eyes....
Suppose it brings to mind "what is truth?" in this day and age.