Evolution is fact Bias - corrected post

by Decidedly_Unsure 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • Decidedly_Unsure
    Decidedly_Unsure

    The "Evolution is a fact" argument started by JanH seems to have found
    overwhelming support. I have not read about many arguments for or against
    evolution except for JW stuff so you will know my alreay biased view:-)

    My understanding of his basic premise is that "common DNA" and "useless DNA"
    should not result from an act of creation but evolution. Hence he asserts:
    <i>
    " as times goes by and evolution changes species considerably, this
    means a lot of junk accumulates in the DNA. In fact, most of the DNA we have
    in us -- and this is true about every other organism -- is useless junk code,
    so-called pseudocode. Some of it contains copies of code used elsewhere
    (reduplications). Lots of it is code that was used by some of our ancestors.
    And, when we see that we share these meaningless sequences with chimps and
    other species as well, it is direct evidence to the fact of evolution."
    </i>
    (Would you agree that the above already indicates an evolutionist's bias in
    the argument? Note the use of ancestors! )
    and he concludes:
    <i>
    "No creationist should be allowed to repeat their silly assertions without
    being called to task to reply to this question: If we and other species were
    created directly, how come we have genes for tails, birds have genes for teeth
    and whales have genes for legs, genes that are sometimes actived today? In the
    creationist world, such a thing would be impossible. In the real world, one
    where all species is the result of evolution -- descent with modification --
    such throwbacks are both possible and exactly what we should expect.
    This is just one reason we know that evolution is a fact"
    </i>
    Does this not presume to know by what means a creator would proceed to make
    living things? From the point of view of the thing evolved or created
    something embedded may be junk but how do we know that this would be so for a
    creator?

    Consider another posible viewpoint. It's interesting that JanH should menton
    pseudocode. Perhaps he has been exposed to some programming languages. I
    myself have basic familiarity with just one or two. Much of the foll. is
    taken from a primer that has nothing to do with evolution/creation debate.
    I just thought it would represent an alternative viewpoint that could refute
    the argument mentioned by JanH.
    The key is inheritance, please read through to the explanation of what that
    is.

    Please bear with me, I wish I could make this shorter:
    ======================================
    In creating new applications a very common approach
    taken by developers is object-oriented programming. This relatively modern
    approach is considered to be far more efficient than earlier methods of
    programming (i.e. creating :-)).

    In this approach, code and data are embedded in
    "black-box" objects derived from blueprints called "Classes".

    How are objects defined? An object is defined via its class, which determines
    everything about an object. Objects are individual instances of a class. For
    example, you may create an object call Spot from class Dog. The Dog class
    defines what it is to be a Dog object, and all the "dog-related" messages a
    Dog object can act upon. All object-oriented languages have some means,
    usually called a factory, to "manufacture" object instances from a class
    definition. You can make more than one object of this class, and call
    them Spot, Fido, Rover, etc. The Dog class defines messages that the Dog
    objects understand, such as "bark", "fetch", and "roll-over".
    <b>
    INHERITANCE IS THE KEY--
    This is the key for someone with no bias toward evolution. Could it be that
    there is a creator who used an analog of inheritance? In fact if he were
    efficient, it would probably make far more sense for him to use this approach
    than any other!
    </b>
    Inheritance: What is it?
    If there is already a class which can respond to a bunch of
    different messages, what if you wanted to make a new, similar class which adds
    just a couple of more messages? Why have to re-write the entire class?

    Of course, in any good object-oriented language, you don't. All you need to do
    is create a subclass (or derived class, in C++ terminology) of the original
    class. This new class inherits all the existing messages, and therefore, all
    the behavior of the original class. The original class is called the parent
    class, or superclass, of the new class. Some more jargon -- a subclass is said
    to be a specialization of its superclass, and the conversely a superclass a
    generalization of its subclasses.

    Inheritance also promotes reuse. You don't have to start from scratch when you
    write a new program. You can simply reuse an existing repertoire of classes
    that have behaviors similar to what you need in the new program.

    For example, after creating the class Dog, you might make a subclass called
    Wolf, which defines some wolf-specific messages, such as hunt. Or it might
    make more sense to define a common class called Canis, of which both Dog and
    Wolf are subclasses.

    Much of the art of o-o programming is determining the best way to divide a
    program into an economical set of classes. In addition to speeding development
    time, proper class construction and reuse results in far fewer lines of code,
    which translates to less bugs and lower maintenance costs.

    ===================

    Junk or Subclassed data? Depends on your bias, doesn't it!!

    Decidedly_Unsure

    BTW an eg of much subclassing/inheritance occurs in many languages for MS
    Windows, where most classes are derived from the superclass called Window.
    For eg. a pushbutton may have available to it all the methods of a window
    including resizing, minimizing etc even though not surfaced to the user.

    A pushbutton could well ask: why do I need all these methods? I just need to
    be clicked!! From the programmers viewpoint it just happens to be a more
    efficient way to do things.

    Guess man was really made in God's image after all. He's even beginning to
    learn how to create efficiently!!

  • Naeblis
    Naeblis

    So God took an earlier model of an animal he created and added information to create a new one, neglecting to remove all the junk? WHy would he do this?

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Decidedly_Unsure,

    I like your post makes sense that is what I can understand of it I'll have to print and read more carefully to get the finer points.

    Naeblis,
    I think he has made a very plausible answer to you question already.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • rem
    rem

    Decidedly,

    Very interesting post. I've thought along the same lines as this before as I am also in the computer field. My initial reaction (which may be unfounded) would be this:

    99% of all species that have ever lived on this planet have gone extinct. Are we version 9,9576.21 of whatever code god can't seem to get right and will we be replaced by version 9,9577.00 soon? It's easy to take one aspect of the DNA evidence by itself and form a plausible sounding theory, but unfortunately this theory doesn't take into consideration all of the other facts, such as great extinctions, fossil record of clear change over time, observed speciation, Mitochondrial DNA (not DNA in the nucleus) which shows clear ancestry, etc.

    I haven't had enough time to give a more thoughtful reply, since it's bed time over here. I look forward to other responses and to more discussion with you on this topic in the future.

    rem

    "We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
  • Decidedly_Unsure
    Decidedly_Unsure

    **********************************
    So God took an earlier model of an animal he created and added information to create a new one, neglecting to remove all the junk? WHy would he do this?
    ********************

    I can't presume to say what was done. I merely postulate that if he used an approach similar to what is now considered efficient systems and application development, he could well have employed the principle of inheritance.

    IOW Rather than make a new template for each object type, it makes sense to develop abstractions or templates in categories with specific potential behaviour and data. New templates inherit from predecesors the capabilities even though not neccessarily surfaced in the actual implementations. Specific behaviour and data are added to these subclasses.
    Why do it? If we have finally realized it is far more efficient to develop relatively trivial things as computer applications and operating systems this way , is it so hard to imagine that life, with it's tremendous range of complexities, could be "pre-programmed" in a similar fashion?

    Did you follow the eg. I gave of the pushbutton on your computer screen? Depending on the language the app you are using was programmed in, it likely has the inherent ability to be minimized, moved etc. even though you can't do it. That's because it was derived from the "window" class.
    Do you believe the programmer who made it this way was lazy? or stupid?

  • Naeblis
    Naeblis

    I'm just saying that according to the Creationists point of view, God snapped his fingers and just "created" everything. I'm not saying what you wrote doesn't make a certain sort of sense, but A god that can make things appear from thought has no need to worry about efficiency. It is an interesting approach though and I don't think I've seen it before. I just doubt that God would approach creating things like a programmer would.

  • larc
    larc

    As I understand JanH's arguement, we have two types of genetic code god stuff and junk. The question is why is the junk in our code the same as the junk in other species? Similiar junk would lend support to the idea of evolution.

    Now if you posit that a God created each individual species, then we would have to assume that he is neither stupid or lazy. When creating a new species, why didn't he had complexity or uniquensess to the code to create the new species and clean out the junk while he was at it? That would be special creation, but the logic does not support special creation, based on dna evidence.

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    larc,
    You need to get out of this rut:

    Now if you posit that a God created each individual species, then we would have to assume that he is neither stupid or lazy. When creating a new species, why didn't he had complexity or uniquensess to the code to create the new species and clean out the junk while he was at it? That would be special creation, but the logic does not support special creation, based on dna evidence.

    That's simply black and white thinking.
    Can't there be other possibilties than what you suggest?

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • larc
    larc

    DW,

    No, it is not black and white thinking at all. It is presenting a certain logic regarding the basic facts. Rather than putting a label on me, why don't you present an alternative explaination of the facts.

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    larc,

    Decidedly_Unsure already did I like his.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?

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