1 Thessalonians 2:15: prejudice against the Jews?

by behemot 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • behemot
    behemot

    1 Thessalonians 2:15 tells about the Jews that they "killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men" (KJV; other versions translate "oppose everyone", "are hostile to all men", "oppose all mankind" etc.).

    Doesn't this statement reflect an anti-semitic attitude on the part of the writer? We shouldn't forget that such a view about the Jews was commonplace among the pagans. For instance, the historian Tacitus wrote that the Jews " adversus omnis alios hostile odium" ("regard the rest of mankind with all the hatred of enemies" - Tacitus, Historiae, V, 5), an idea very similar to that expressed in the NT verse.

    It's noteworthy that the New World Translation tries to downplay this somehow embarassing statement by translating the verse to mean that the Jews "are against [the interests of] all men", where the words "the interests of" are obviously inserted and not in the original Greek.

    Behemot

  • Octarine Prince
    Octarine Prince

    Diaglott, please?

  • behemot
    behemot

    Diaglott reads:

    1 Thessalonians 2:15 "of those also the Lord having killed Jesus and the prophets, and us persecuted, and God not pleasing,and to all men contrary"

    (from http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/bsl/Library/BIBLES/Diagltt/Diaglott.pdf)

    Behemot

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Doesn't this statement reflect an anti-semitic attitude on the part of the writer?

    Behemot,

    What are you talking about? The writer was a Jew and the statement was true. And not only such Jews but Christian Jews, important Christian Jews like James were causing problems for the Gentiles Christians at the time. Paul would address them as well. You find this in nearly all his letters? So what is your point? Are we to conceal truth to avoid labels such as anti-semitic? Or are we to reveal such truth and admonish those engaged in such sinful conduct to repent?

    Joseph

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    Why do you think Jesus said he came to the Jews and not to the Gentiles?

    Because it was the Jews who needed to be straightened out more than the rest of them.

    The Jews have been carrying on a master of deceit and Jesus tried to get them to stop it and repent of what they were doing.

    That's why they killed him. He was upsetting their applecart. Their religion was magic tricks and technology taught to them by the evil angels, the Nephilim. They used this to deceive people and called it "religion". The ten commandments were given because the scriptures tell us that the ruler of this world (Satan) rules with an iron hand. All religions are based on heavy burdens of punishment for imperfection.

    The Jewish religion is based on superstition.

    The ephod was like our modern day 8 ball.

    The Jews set up the system of sacrifice. That's how they got paid.Religion became a business.

    Look at the animal sacrifices. Do you really believe that you can sling a chicken over your head three times and chant and believe that your sins are transferred to the chicken? And then you kill the chicken as a punishment for your sins and call it a sacrifice? If you don't do this, then does "God" require you give up your life if you don't have a chicken to substitute?The Jews do this. It's called Kaparot. They still sacrifice chickens in this day and age, even in the USA.

    It is still going on today as the majority of world religions are based on the charlatan Abraham. Islam, christianity, and Judaism all are based on Abrahamic roots.

    And the cow sacrifices? That's how the rabbinical priests had dinner!

    Archeologists have now shown that there were underground tunnels to the temple where they would sneak back in at night and eat the "sacrifices". And people were so conned that they thought the statues actually came alive and ate the foods prepared for them.

    Religion has been a con since day one. And the Jews started it.

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    When I read it in context it doesn't appear prejudicial. The writer (Paul) isn't saying every Jew is guilty of those things and is to be adversely judged for them.

    He is saying that the gentiles suffered from other non-christian gentiles just like christian jews suffered from non-christian jews.

    I will say that as usual JosephMalik, you've given me something to think about. I've never quite put together that the first part of verse 16 was referring to James and the circumcision group. I'll have to think on that awhile but it seems plausible and even likely. Especially if you tie this in with Romans 14:2 where Paul talks about those who eat only vegetables as having weak faith.

    hmmm...

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    The Listener,

    Yes persecution came on them both from all sources. There are always those that jockey for control and persecution is one of the ways they do this. We must be both aware to avoid them and properly enlightened to help them whatever the circumstances permit. That not only James, but Peter for a time, John, as well as any other Apostles and thousands of Christian Jews (Acts 21:20) in Jerusalem and in Paul's territories were caught up in all this is revealed in scripture. They were keeping the Law (circumcision for short) for salvation and this is really the reason that our Lord had to go out of his own following to select someone like Paul to handle this for him. This is also why only Paul made appointments of overseers the way he did and authorized others for this purpose as well. Only an Apostle had such authority. This is all clearly revealed in scripture but kept hidden by major religions and scholars who want everything goody goody, uniform and you controlled. This is why Hebrews had to be written which brought James and many others back to the reality of what it meant to be born again. After both reading and listening to scripture over and over for several years back in the 70's and trying to make sense out of it this all came out and was offered to the WT. They gave me the boot for it as expected. Now it is easy to show not only successes but errors made by the Faith at the time that were well documented and yet few see since such texts are misapplied by most. What does this mean today? We should now know what to expect with so many denominations in existence and understand how to handle them as we serve our Lord's interests as disciples until He returns.

    Joseph

  • Mary
    Mary
    Doesn't this statement reflect an anti-semitic attitude on the part of the writer? We shouldn't forget that such a view about the Jews was commonplace among the pagans

    Just to clarify: there's a difference between being anti-semitic and anti-Jewish. Anti-Jewish basically means you don't believe in the religion or practices of the Jews, which is what is under question here. Being anti-Semitic basically means a hatred of all things Jewish: their religion, culture, ancestory and nationality. Early Christians were more anti-Jewish because if a Jew converted to Christianity, they were welcomed with opened arms, no questions asked. That would never happen with a group who is anti-Semitic because to them, there is nothing redeemable in a Jew. Hitler and his henchmen were all anti-Semitic.

    With that said, there is some debate with scholars (no, not the 'WT celebrated scholars' but genuine ones with a PhD after their names) as to whether Paul actually wrote this passage in 1 Thess. because Paul, in his writings and as a former Pharisee himself, did not express hatred towards his fellow Jews. Matthew 27: 24-25 makes it appear as though Pontius Pilate actually tried to save Jesus' life, but caved to pressure from the apparent blood-hungry crowd of Jews who were demanding his head on a platter so to speak. Pilate famously 'washes his hands' of the affair and the rest is history.

    However, to anyone who's actually studied this time frame in history, I sincerely doubt Jesus' death panned out exactly the way it is described in the New Testament. First of all, there is no historical evidence of the Romans having a "tradition" of releasing a prisoner to the Jews. Secondly, Pilate was no wimp and if there was in fact a crowd of Jews who were starting to get out of control, he would have dealt with it with swift and brutal violence. And thirdly, Jesus was not a threat to the average Jew. He was, however, a threat to the Jewish leaders as well as to the Roman occupation. It is doubtful that every single Jewish leader wanted him dead and under Jewish law, Jesus could have been convicted on as little as "two witnesses".

    My own opinion on it is that after Jesus' execution, some of the newly formed group of Christians probably grew increasingly bitter at their fellow Jews for refusing to accept Jesus as the Messiah and in the earliest writings, the blame shifted away from Rome and some of the Pharisees and onto the average Jew instead. Another possibility is that the writers might have been hoping to gain a measure of freedom under the Roman occupation and if they blamed the Jews for killing the King of the Jews instead of the Roman governor, it might work in their favor. (of course, it didn't, but that's another story).

    The New Testament gives the idea that no more than 20 or 30 years after Jesus' death, that tension between Jews and Christians was so bad it could be cut with a knife, but this isn't really so. The newly formed Christians continued to preach in the Synogogues up until the destruction in 70CE. The split between the two groups did not happen all at once, but it happened gradually over then next 3 centuries. While some put the final parting of the way between Jews and Christians at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE, others put it as early as 70 CE.

    What's so tragic though, about these passages in the NT, is that they were used for centuries as justification for Pogroms against the Jews. To this day I'm amazed at how many people are ignorant of the fact that Jesus himself was a Jew, not a Christian.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    The New Testament gives the idea that no more than 20 or 30 years after Jesus' death, that tension between Jews and Christians was so bad it could be cut with a knife, but this isn't really so. The newly formed Christians continued to preach in the Synogogues up until the destruction in 70CE. The split between the two groups did not happen all at once, but it happened gradually over then next 3 centuries. While some put the final parting of the way between Jews and Christians at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE, others put it as early as 70 CE.

    Mary,

    Of course it was both true and immediate. Not Jews and Christians but Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles is the right was to put it. Look what James did to Paul after the matter was supposedly settled some 14 years earlier; Acts 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. Wow and not something that happened over centuries. That famous letter was not intended for Jews to obey, Paul now learns. The issue was not settled as thought and years more of it would go on until James finally gave in and wrote his letter to such Jews which corrected his position over Law. But all this almost had Paul killed and by Christian Jews at that. The Roman army saved him. And you know that Synogogues did not go away simply because the Temple was destroyed. Paul continues to both mix in with and preach to them all along. Why is this not done today if the scriptures teach us that it can or should be done? No one has the talent for doing this anymore and the Jews are much different today about such things as well.

    Joseph

  • Mary
    Mary
    Synogogues did not go away simply because the Temple was destroyed. Paul continues to both mix in with and preach to them all along. Why is this not done today if the scriptures teach us that it can or should be done?

    Funny you should ask that because I was going to ask the exact same question. Although there does seem to be some softening up on many Christian groups' part towards the Jews, which is a good thing. Ah, if only Rutherfraud were alive to see it......He's probably rolling over in his cement grave at Beth Sarim at the very thought of Christians supporting Jews.

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