Witchtower twists yet another scripture 2Cor 12: 8 -10 Nov 15 WT

by hamsterbait 33 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Mary
    Mary

    For anyone who is interested, here is the entire document from the Biblical Archaeology Review regarding God's name in the NT that renaii quoted from:

    The Name of God in the New Testament

    Did the earliest Gospels use Hebrew letters for the Tetragrammaton? By George Howard Picture Many early copies of the New Testament abbreviate sacred words (nomina sacra). The earliest of these abbreviations stand for “God,” “Lord,” “Christ,” and “Jesus.” Abbreviations of these words were formed by writing their first and last letters and placing a line over them. Thus, using English to illustrate, “God” would appear as G ÷ D ÷ and “Lord” as L ÷ D ÷ . The attempt to differentiate and dignify the sacred name of God goes back to pre-Christian times; it was done first by Jews. From the Dead Sea Scrolls we know that Jewish scribes often distinguished the divine name Yahweh. (Yahweh is known as the Tetragrammaton because it consists of four consonant Hebrew letters, yod, he, vav, he, often written in English YHWH.) Frequently, the scribes who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls would write the Tetragrammaton in old paleo-Hebrew script, although the scroll was otherwise written in square Aramaic script. An example is the Habakkuk commentary found in cave 1. In the portion reproduced in the color photograph, the Tetragrammaton appears twice in paleo-Hebrew script on line 7 word 3 (reading from right to left) and on line 14 word 7. The rest of the text is in square Aramaic script—the same script used as a basis for writing Hebrew today. The Tetragrammaton is used in the Habakkuk commentary only in Biblical quotations. Whenever reference is made to God in the commentary portion, the generic word el (God) is used. This is true not only in the Habakkuk commentary, but in other Qumran (Dead Sea Scroll) documents as well. The Qumran covenanters had other devices for circumventing the use of God’s name. Sometimes they would write four or five dots in place of the Tetragrammaton. In the Community Rule, for example, the writer quotes Isaiah 40:3 as follows: “Prepare in the wilderness the way of . … ”. We know from the Masoretic Text that the four dots stand for the Tetragrammaton YHWH. This same passage is quoted again in a document discovered in Qumran Cave 4 (4QTanhumim) with four dots representing the divine name. At times, dots were placed above the Tetragrammaton when it had been written by mistake, apparently as a means of canceling the word without actually erasing it. Jews early adopted the practice of not pronouncing the divine name when Scripture was read aloud, even in prayer. The word adonai (Lord) was (and is to this day) read by Jews instead of the Tetragrammaton YHWH which appears on the page. Such practices as writing the divine name in archaic script, of substituting dots for it, or of avoiding it altogether suggests that to Jews the sacred name for God was a special word which required special treatment both in writing and oral reading. Christian Scriptures frequently quote passages from the Old Testament in which the divine name YHWH appears in the original Hebrew. In these quotations, however, the divine name is translated into the Greek word kyrios (Lord), or occasionally theos (God). Both of these words are generic words for God, not limited to the Hebrew God whose name is Yahweh and who is represented in the Hebrew Bible by the Tetragrammaton. Most of these Old Testament quotations in the New come from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Old Testament made by Jews in pre-Christian times. The Septuagint (or at least the extant, later Christian copies of it) usually renders the Tetragrammaton by kyrios; the New Testament simply follows this practice. In 1944, W. G. Waddell discovered the remains of an Egyptian papyrus scroll (Papyrus Fuad 266) dating to the first or second century B.C. which included part of the Septuagint. In no instance, however, was YHWH translated kyrios. Instead the Tetragrammaton itself—in square Aramaic letters—was written into the Greek text. This parallels the Qumran Covenanters’ use of the palaeo-Hebrew script for the Divine Name in a document which was otherwise written in square Aramaic script. An even closer parallel to the practice Waddell found in Papyrus Fuad 266 comes from second century A.D. Jewish translations of the Old Testament into Greek by Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion. In 1897, F. C. Burkitt published some fragments of Aquila’s Greek Old Testament which had been found in the debris of a geniza (a storeroom for worn out manuscripts) of the old synagogue in Cairo. These fragments which are the underwriting of palimpsest a scraps clearly show the Hebrew Tetragrammaton in paleo-Hebrew script written into the otherwise Greek text. A number of other similar examples have also come to light. Picture At the end of the last century, Giovanni Cardinal Mercati discovered a palimpsest in the Ambrosian Library of Milan containing parts of the Psalter to Origen’s Hexapla b (lacking the Hebrew column). All the columns show the Tetragrammaton written in square Aramaic script, although the texts are otherwise written in Greek. Fragments of Psalm 22 from Origen’s Hexapla, found in the Cairo geniza, were published in 1900 by C. Taylor. These fragments show the Tetragrammaton written into the Greek columns of Aquila, Symmachus, and the Septuagint in the strange form of PIPI. This is a clumsy attempt to represent with Greek letters what the Tetragrammaton looked like in Hebrew. The Greek letter pi somewhat resembles the Hebrew letter he. The Fuad papyrus scroll is the earliest example we have examined, dating to the first or second century B.C. Here for the first time we have clear evidence that in pre-Christian times the Septuagint, at least sometimes, did not translate the divine name with the Greek word kyrios as had been thought; rather it preserved the Hebrew word YHWH itself. Could it be that Jews had always written the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew into the text of their Greek Bibles and that this practice represented a continuous tradition from the earliest Septuagint through the second century translations of Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion? Or is the Fuad manuscript a maverick, the only one in its day to do such a thing? In 1952, fragments of a scroll of the Twelve Prophets in Greek were found in a cave at Nahal Hever in the Judean Desert. Père D. Barthelemy announced the discovery of the scroll in 1953 and ten years later published a transcription of it. In all probability the document dates to the beginning of the first Christian century. Like the Fuad papyrus it too writes the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew—in old style script—in an otherwise Greek text. At Qumran cave 4, a fragment of the Greek translation of Leviticus confirms that the divine name was preserved in the pre-Christian Septuagint. In this scroll, dated by P. W. Skehan to the first century B.C., the Tetragrammaton is transliterated with the Greek letters IAO. Thus, we have three separate pre-Christian copies of the Greek Septuagint Bible and in not a single instance is the Tetragrammaton translated kyrios or for that matter translated at all. We can now say with near certainty that it was a Jewish practice before, during, and after the New Testament period to write the divine name in paleo-Hebrew or square Aramaic script or in transliteration right into the Greek text of Scripture. This presents a striking comparison with the Christian copies of the Septuagint and the quotations of it in the New Testament which translate the Tetragrammaton as kyrios or theos. Why do Christian copies of the Septuagint reflect a practice so radically different from that of the Jews in designating the Divine Name? Or do they? We have already mentioned that while Christians translated the Tetragrammaton as either kyrios or theos, they abbreviated these surrogates by writing only their first and last letters and by placing a line over them to attract attention. What was the purpose of these Christian abbreviations? In 1907, Ludwig Traube suggested that the nomina sacra were of Hellenistic Jewish origin. The first of these, he suggested, was theos, which was abbreviated without vowels so as to follow the Hebrew custom of writing consonants only. Soon theos was followed by kyrios which became an alternate surrogate and the first and last letters became an alternate contraction. According to Traube, these contractions gave rise to the belief that the important thing was to write sacred words in abbreviated form. This resulted in a number of words being written in a similar way (for example, spirit, father and heaven). In 1959, A. H. R. E. Paap took up the issue again and argued that the system of contracted nomina sacra was of Jewish-Christian origin emanating from Alexandria about 100 A.D. It seems to me, however, that a much better case can be made that the system of contractions is of Gentile Christian origin. The divine name YHWH was and is the most sacred word in the Hebrew language. So it is hardly likely that Jews of any sort would have removed it from their Bibles. Furthermore, we know now from discoveries in Egypt and the Judean desert that Jews wrote the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew even in their Greek texts. In all likelihood Jewish Christians felt the same way about the divine name and continued to preserve it in Hebrew in their Bibles. A famous rabbinic passage (Talmud Shabbat 13.5) discusses the problem of destroying heretical texts (very probably including books of Jewish-Christians). The problem arises for the rabbinic writer because the heretical texts contain the divine name, and their wholesale destruction would include the destruction of the divine name. This further suggests that Jewish Christians did not translate the divine name into Greek. But Gentile Christians, unlike Jewish Christians, had no traditional attachment to the Hebrew Tetragrammaton and no doubt often failed even to recognize it. Gentile scribes who had never before seen Hebrew writing (especially in its archaic form) could hardly be expected to preserve the divine name. Perhaps this contributed to the use of surrogates like kyrios and theos for the Tetragrammaton. The contracted form of the surrogates marked the sacred nature of the name standing behind them in a way which was convenient for Gentile scribes to write. At the same time the abbreviated surrogates may have appeased Jewish Christians who continued to feel the necessity of differentiating the divine name from the rest of the text. After the system of contractions was in use for some time, its purpose was forgotten and many other contracted words which had no connection with the Tetragrammaton were introduced. Assuming this to be generally correct, I offer the following scenario of the history of the Tetragrammaton in the Greek Bible as a whole, including both testaments. First, as to the Old Testament: Jewish scribes always preserved the Tetragrammaton in their copies of the Septuagint both before and after the New Testament period. In all probability Jewish Christians wrote the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew as well. Toward the end of the first Christian century, when the church had become predominantly Gentile, the motive for retaining the Hebrew name for God was lost and the words kyrios and theos were substituted for it in Christian copies of Old Testament Septuagints. Both kyrios and theos were written in abbreviated form in a conscious effort to preserve the sacred nature of the divine name. Soon the original significance of the contractions was lost and many other contracted words were added. A similar pattern probably evolved with respect to the New Testament. When the Septuagint which the New Testament church used and quoted contained the Hebrew form of the divine name, the New Testament writers no doubt included the Tetragrammaton in their quotations. But when the Hebrew form for the divine name was eliminated in favor of Greek substitutes in the Septuagint, it was eliminated also from the New Testament quotations of the Septuagint. Thus toward the end of the first Christian century, the use of surrogates (kyrios and theos) and their contractions must have crowded out the Hebrew Tetragrammaton in both Testaments. Before long the divine name was lost to the Gentile church except insofar as it was reflected in the contracted surrogates or remembered by scholars. Soon, even the contracted substitutes lost their original significance and were joined by a host of other abbreviated nomina sacra which had no connection with the divine name at all. Is there any way for us, at this late date, to calculate the effect which this change in the Bible had on the second century church? It is of course impossible to know with certainty, but the effect must have been significant. First, a number of passages must have taken on an ambiguity which the original lacked. For example, the second century church read, “The Lord said to my Lord” ( Matthew 22:44 , Mark 12:36 , Luke 20:42 ), a reading which is as ambiguous as it is imprecise. The first century church probably read, “YHWH said to my Lord.” To the second century church, “Prepare the way of the Lord” ( Mark 1:3 ) must have meant one thing, since it immediately followed the words: “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ.” But to the First Century Church it must have meant something else since they read, “Prepare the way of YHWH.” The second century church read 1 Corinthians 1:31 , “The one who boasts, let him boast in the Lord,” which was probably considered a reference to Christ mentioned in verse 30 . But to the first century church, it probably referred to God mentioned in verse 29 since they read, “The one who boasts let him boast in YHWH.” These examples are sufficient to suggest that the removal of the Tetragrammaton from the New Testament and its replacement with the surrogates kyrios and theos blurred the original distinction between the Lord God and the Lord Christ, and in many passages made it impossible to tell which one was meant. This is supported by the fact that in a number of places where Old Testament quotations are cited, there is a confusion in the manuscript tradition whether to read God or Christ in the discussion surrounding the quotation. Once the Tetragrammaton was removed and replaced by the surrogate “Lord”, scribes were unsure whether “Lord” meant God or Christ. As time went on, these two figures were brought into even closer unity until it was often impossible to distinguish between them. Thus it may be that the removal of the Tetragrammaton contributed significantly to the later Christological and Trinitarian debates which plagued the church of the early Christian centuries. Whatever the case, the removal of the Tetragrammaton probably created a different theological climate from that which existed during the New Testament period of the first century. The Jewish God who had always been carefully distinguished from all others by the use of his Hebrew name lost some of his distinctiveness with the passing of the Tetragrammaton. How much He lost may be known only by the discovery of a first century New Testament in which the Hebrew name YHWH still appears. (For further details, see George Howard, “The Tetragram and the New Testament”, Journal of Biblical Literature 96 (1977) 63–83.)
  • Mary
    Mary
    reniaa said: This probably something we'll never know and if we did find a manuscript that contained it, I don't think it would rock the world, people would just explain it away as them quoting from OT scriptures lol and yet it's lack is used to try and prove trinity

    Unfortunately, we will most likely never find a manuscript from the earliest Christian congregation that used the Tetragramaton for the very simple reason that there was no direct translation from ancient Hebrew to the Greek language for the Tetragrammaton, which is why "Lord" and "God" are used in it's place. (My one boss is an Orthodox Jew with a PhD in Greek so we've had many discussions about this).

    I for one, do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. Even so, it's still highly dubious the way the NWT took the liberty of inserting "Jehovah" into thousands of verses in the Christian Greek scriptures for no other reason than to promote their own belief system. One of the 10 Commandments was that the Israelites were not supposed to use God's name "in vain" or "in a worthless way". In other words, His name was so holy that they were not to use it the way you would everyday names like Paul, David or Moses. That is why the Jews did not use it on a daily basis then and why they don't use it to this day.

    Jehovah's Witnesses might feel that they are doing the right thing by using the name "Jehovah" on a regular basis, but in fact, they are going directly against the Commandment above where He specifically said not to.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi mary

    I'm just trying to point out a rule of thumb which is "Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack" just because the earliest copies we have don't use the tetragramation it doesn't mean it never was there! and howard an obvious trinitarian by his letter backing the 'deity of christ' can still say he sees that from earliest copies it could have been there, means we have to recognise there was a chance it was.

    I have heard people on this forum use the lack of tetragramation in new testament as a support for the jesus is God argument, which is really making a massive leap even if it wasn't even in original copies which we don't have.

    Even so, it's still highly dubious the way the NWT took the liberty of inserting "Jehovah" into thousands of verses in the Christian Greek scriptures

    in the Old testament YHWH is used 6800 time officially no one argues with that at all, God definately wanted us to know his name in the OT

    Jehovah's witnesses have inserted Jehovah in the New Testament 237 times not thousands as you stated, it could have been thousands but on the whole they only placed it were OT scriptures are quoted from, they did add it with some none OT quoting scriptures but you'll have to decide for yourself if they were right to in those cases..

  • Mary
    Mary
    in the Old testament YHWH is used 6800 time officially no one argues with that at all, God definately wanted us to know his name in the OT

    It's one thing to know God's name. It's another to "use it in vain" or "in a worthless manner". That's simply the reason why the Jews haven't used it for over 2,000 years. It's not out of superstition, but rather out of respect. It's the same as people in England who know who their Queen is. Yet no one (except, I will assume her husband), addresses her as "Elizabeth". Instead, they call her "Your Majesty" out of respect.

    And if you really want to get technical, "Jehovah" is not the correct pronouciation of YHVH anyway. So in actuality, the WTS is promoting an erroneous translation of God's name.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Good morning mary just caught your reply

    It's one thing to know God's name. It's another to "use it in vain" or "in a worthless manner". That's simply the reason why the Jews haven't used it for over 2,000 years. It's not out of superstition, but rather out of respect. It's the same as people in England who know who their Queen is. Yet no one (except, I will assume her husband), addresses her as "Elizabeth". Instead, they call her "Your Majesty" out of respect.

    Yes but if because your name isn't used, people suddenly get rid of it completely and start calling your son prince charles your majesty instead because men have decided to be too literal on a rule wouldn't that have made queen elizabeth mad? Jesus never wanted the position of god and he always put his father first without exception, it's only others that tried to worship him. it wasn't false modesty on jesus's part but a genuine determination to give his father the correct position. "My father is greater than I" (any person can see this just from reading any scripture on how jesus describes his feelings on his father and God, there isn't a single version that has jesus saying "I am god you should worship me)

    And if you really want to get technical, "Jehovah" is not the correct pronouciation of YHVH anyway. So in actuality, the WTS is promoting an erroneous translation of God's name.

    As for the name thing thats a weak argument at best! otherwise we'd all be saying yeshua instead of jesus, the pronounciation issue has been covered quite deeply in other threads by myself and others. and jehovah has been used for centuries well before JW's as a pronouciation it has more seniority than yahweh which is basically just an alternative at best, Whether to pronouce J as Y is moot point as with jesus we pronouce the J instead of Y too.

  • wobble
    wobble

    Dear Reniaa,

    I love your posts! they give an alternative view. I may not agree with all you say but I love to hear what you have to say,please keep it up!

    At the risk of starting a new thread,how on earth could you consider going back to JW's ?

    I am just "fading" at present but can only see myself drawing closer to Jesus and His Father by learning the truth from the scriptures with the aid of the Holy Spirit.How could you go back to following men and not Jesus?

    Love and best wishes

    Wobble

    p.s PM me if you like.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hey there wobble,

    I like to put an alternative viewpoint thx for appreciating it, If people can still be of the same opinion when they hear BOTH the fors and against, not just being a group of nodding yes men to each other then they have a stronger belief, in a way i'm helping as much as those that agree, lol even jesus needed to be tested in the desert 30 days and nights by satan hehe.

    As for going back I've come full-circle really, I tried the alternatives for 10 years even went to other churches to see what they were like, my ex-partner was a pentacostal, I just found them all just variations of a theme even atheism or evolutionists, we all have to believe something whether it's ufo or we came from a Big bang or more commonly just ourselves and what our own mind decides what is ok and acceptable.

    Men themselves don't change from the good and gentle to the tyranical and mean spirited, I find examples of all with every organisation.
    in the end i tried to test my belief in the bible innitially going on an atheist forum, hearing all the reasons why believing in any God is man fooling himself, lol 100 page long discussions on the bible and alternative ancient manuscripts lol from the koran, upanishads/veda, tao-te-ching to talmud I found I couldn't give up the bible.

    But then which Christian religion? (its a question we all face unfortunately with increasing lack of conviction) the choices are endless my ex's faith showed me in a real way that there's a fine line between making all sinful people welcome then having them use forgiveness of sins principle to continue their wrongdoing as a 'get out of jail free card'

    I admit as a born in JW, trinity is the hardest thing to get over, it so obviously a wrongly applied logical construct as the alternative arguement towards one God and jesus been his son for me has greater biblical back-up as well as actually not being a logical construct but an definitive bible statement, you will find nowhere in the bible it says 'We are 3 in 1' but you do find "I am one god" and as I say in above posts jesus backs this up, always assigning the credit to his father.

    In Russels day Russel was just a another voice from among the centuries that was standing against current christian trends, part of the problem causing the deversity of christian faiths today is that reason alone, I often wonder if the One God christians hadd won the debate in the early centuries and catholism hadn't developed such a biblical unsustainable christian faith then would we be in this mess? (it isn't just the trinity thing, but the pope thing, the idol worship of cross and making jesus mother a virgin when the bible says she had more children etc, etc)

    Name any alternative christian faith they all have developed from some man say hey this is wrong! or in my countries national faith Church of England a king saying "Hey i fancy a divorce and while you at it I should be worshiped like the pope" our queen is still official head of the church unusual even for a christian faith :S

    By using jehovah, Jw's have me back to them (ps i did look at alternative one god christian faiths like christeldelphians but they don't believe in satan etc) One thing i find in favour of Jws is their ability to change even if it has led to some serious doctrinal mistakes (I still struggle with jesus/michael construct, and the strictness of disfellowshipping) Its harder to change a doctrine issue than any other issue, hense why when you look at any faith they may have changed one major issue but continued practising others from catholic teachings in particular the 'Trinity'.

    It's far easier to get looser and shake off doctrinal issues completely the bible always had us taking certain things on faith like God's existence, noah's flood etc to go further and cloud it all in mystery and just sticking jesus on top like a cherry and say love everyone is really the easy option! for example it means on this forum you have all people agreeing on one thing the wrongness of JW's but in everything else they are completely disimilar just try a thread asking 'what faith they have chosen since JW's'?

  • carla
    carla

    Rennia,

    Have you looked at the doctrinal debates at CARM or Beliefnet? the jw-Christian debates? Just curious, I think you would get a different view of those who have left the org and have decided to put the Lord above fallible men.

  • eyeslice
    eyeslice

    Before I left permanently, I found myself more and more having to correct brothers and sisters who incorrectly applied 'Lord' to Jehovah. As far as I can see, the majority of the times that Paul used the word 'Lord' he was referring to the Lord Jesus - when he referred to God he used the word God.

    Hence, when Col 3:23 states, "Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men" it referring to the Lord Jesus and certainly not the work of Jehovah (aka Jehovah's Witnesses). I am amazed how often elders and even higher ups in the organisation mis-quote the scriptures, proving that they are not the Bible scholars the purport to be.

    Eyeslice (no Bible scholar but at least I admit it)

  • Mary
    Mary
    Yes but if because your name isn't used, people suddenly get rid of it completely and start calling your son prince charles your majesty instead because men have decided to be too literal on a rule wouldn't that have made queen elizabeth mad?

    Um, your illustration doesn't make any sense. No one has called Prince Charles "Your Majesty". His title is "His Royal Highness". Just because her subjects do not address her as "Elizabeth" does not mean that they're going to suddenly start address her son as "His Majesty". That simply would make no sense.

    Actually, I find that most Christians and Jews are aware that God's name is YHVH and that has absolutely nothing to do with the Witnesses. It's there in the bible. I have no problem with using the name "Yahweh" or even "Jehovah" on occassion, but as I've already demonstrated, using it on a daily basis flies directly in conflict with the Commandment "You must not use the Lord's name in vain".

    Jesus never wanted the position of god and he always put his father first without exception, it's only others that tried to worship him. it wasn't false modesty on jesus's part but a genuine determination to give his father the correct position. "My father is greater than I" (any person can see this just from reading any scripture on how jesus describes his feelings on his father and God, there isn't a single version that has jesus saying "I am god you should worship me)

    I never said there was. Like I've already said, I do not believe in the Trinity myself and this is one of the (very few) doctrines taught by the Witnesses that I subscribe to.

    As for the name thing thats a weak argument at best! otherwise we'd all be saying yeshua instead of jesus, the pronounciation issue has been covered quite deeply in other threads by myself and others. and jehovah has been used for centuries well before JW's as a pronouciation it has more seniority than yahweh which is basically just an alternative at best, Whether to pronouce J as Y is moot point as with jesus we pronouce the J instead of Y too.

    Ah, but you're missing the point. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say not to use Jesus' name 'in vain'. Nowhere do the scriptures indicate that the name 'Jesus' or 'Yeshua' is "holy" the same way the name "YHVH" is holy. In fact, this could be a strong argument FOR the Witnesses when discussing the whole "is-Jesus-God?" with others.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit