Did Jehovah really prove Satan wrong?

by easyreader1970 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  easyreader1970

  In the WBTS publication "Jehovah's Day" on page 33 it says this:

  Over the centuries, Satan has tried to prove that if humans are given an incentive to do otherwise, they will not serve Jehovah. You know that Satan has failed. Jesus Christ and many other servants of Jehovah have kept integrity to God and have shown that they serve him out of love.

  My twisted thinking is this: Was Satan really shown to be wrong, at least according to Witness theology? Many people have continued to "serve Jehovah" but most people are continuing to choose to not serve Jehovah, whatever their incentive to not do so is supposed to be.

  I say: New England Patriots fans only attend the games because the team is winning. If the team wasn't winning, people wouldn't go see them. They like the team because they win, not because they actually like the team for what it is.

  You say: New England Patriots fans love the team and they would go even if the Patriots had a losing record every year.

  What happens: The Patriots start losing. There are only two thousand people showing up for each game opposed to the sixty thousand that were there before.

  You say: See I was right. People do love the Patriots.

  I say: Wait, what?
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  shamus100

  I say: most people who claim to be Jehovahs Witnesses do not 'worship' Jehovah out of love at all. They worship out of fear of losing they're family and friends.

  According to the governing body and they're interpretation of the bible, they're doomed too. Jehovah is not very nice, you know....
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  FlyingHighNow

  Fear motivates many religious people to serve their gods. It's only when you have the freedom to make good decisions and not make them motivated by fear, that you can choose to make good decisions out of love. This is one reason I know the Universalist way of looking at the world makes the most sense. And universalism includes every intelligent being and gives them the credit to eventually come to the right decisions out of love. It also includes all belief systems as ways to God.
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  NewYork44M

  I say: Wait, what?

  This is the ultimate conspiracy theory; A battle between good and evil that spans the total existence of mankind. And you say What??
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  james_woods

  An absurdly ironic theological idea:

  a. Jehovah creates man with the idea that he should have free will. However, he puts forth a pointless rule for free-willed man (pointless, except to test man's free will).

  b. Satan comes along and ruins the test by putting his finger on the scales, so to speak, by making a suggestion that the pointless rule is in fact, pointless. This leaves us to not know whether man would have figured that out for himself in time anyway.

  c. Satan is given a little ruler-across-the-wrists for this act. Man is doomed to death.

  d. Now, Jehovah needs to prove that man will serve him out of free will. How does he do this? Just like Satan got him to eat the apple in the first place...he puts an idea with a bribe in man's mind. Follow me and you will live forever.

  e. Jehovah, still not really trusting in man's free will - creates the faithful and discreet slave class to tell man "do not trust in your own free will, but rather do what we say."

  So - if JHVH really wanted absolute obedience, wouldn't it have all been easier to just make Adam without any free will in the first place?

  All this drama has not really proven anything except that most people are going to pretty much do as they please anyway - an issue that could have been called settled in the Garden from Jump Street.
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  berylblue

  Excellent post, James.
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  WTWizard

  You cannot prove Satan wrong by using force of circumstance to get obedience. And that's what Jehovah has done to me, and continues to this day. Proving absolutely nothing.
• 

  funkyderek

  easyrider1970:

  My twisted thinking is this: Was Satan really shown to be wrong, at least according to Witness theology? Many people have continued to "serve Jehovah" but most people are continuing to choose to not serve Jehovah, whatever their incentive to not do so is supposed to be.

  Yeah, it seems a bit unfair that Satan has to have a 100% record in order to win. You'd think the 99.9% of the world who follow him (according to JW theology) would be enough to win. But Jehovah is a sore loser, so not only is he going to claim victory but he's going to destroy everyone else, which because of his own poor showing is a vast number of people.
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  james_woods

  Yeah, it seems a bit unfair that Satan has to have a 100% record in order to win. You'd think the 99.9% of the world who follow him (according to JW theology) would be enough to win. But Jehovah is a sore loser, so not only is he going to claim victory but he's going to destroy everyone else, which because of his own poor showing is a vast number of people.

  Indeed. And, taking it to its absurd reductionism - there are only 9 Jehovah's Witnesses who actually have any free will anyway, because they are the governing body. But wait -

  a. Three of the governing body cannot excercise free will at any one time, because a 2/3 majority rules.

  b. But wait - none of the governing body can really excercise free will anyway, because they are all told by holy spirit what to do.

  c. But wait - what is that 2/3 rule for anyway, if they are all told what to do?

  So I guess nobody can excercise free will. Not even Jehovah, as he cannot seem to prove Satan wrong.
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  blondie

  Actually, the WTS teaches that it isn't until the end of the 1,000 reign that Satan and his followers are all destroyed. From then on the WTS teaches that anyone who disobeys "God" will be instantly destroyed. Based on that, it seems that the WTS doesn't teach that Satan is proved wrong until then.

  Blondie