** If God is love, you cannot fear him **

by FlyingHighNow 62 Replies latest jw friends

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  FlyingHighNow

  FHN, can I ask you a question? You say you are a Universalist. Yet, when posting on White Dove's thread, you ask what a UU is? I actually like a lot of things about Universalists. I am just confused if you are one, why you would ask what they are? Please don't take this as confrontational, I am just confused.

  Sincerely, choosing life

  QL, I know what the Universalist/Unitarian Church is. I was asking WD what UU was because I wanted to be sure this is the church she meant by typing UU. I am an Episcopalian, but I am a universalist. You can be hindu, muslim, buddhist, Catholic, Quaker and many others and embrace universalism. There is a Christian Universalist movement. I hope this helps make my question more clear to you.
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  FlyingHighNow

  Renaii, it's the WTBTS and fundy type churches who insist we must accept the Bible as Gods inspired word or reject the whole thing. I don't accept that the Bible is all God's inspired word. I don't believe it was ever meant to be accepted as completely from God's own pen.

  Interestingly enough, once again (it's been a few years for me), AGuest says something that I can grasp like a life ring from that sinking ship.

  I gave up long ago on the "Bible". I find it hard to believe that anyone can accept that "book" as the "word of god".

  I *do* find that some things I've read from that document, specifically, most of the qoutes of "Jesus" just fucking blow me away.

  I've pretty much decided that most of the "Bible" is trash and Jesus was wiser that he should ever have been.

  How could one man be so freakin' wise?

  Honestly, I don't get it unless there is some kinda god. I don't think I'm grasping at straws, I'm just trying to resolve some long term questions I have.

  You and I agree Amicus.
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  FlyingHighNow

  Fear is the abscence of love but fear and love are really two sides of the same coin. We love the things or people that we value, then we seek to protect that which we value, which leads to fear of losing what we value.

  When it comes to god, we are just projecting our subjective emotions onto something invisible outside of ourselves in the hope of giving them substance, or elevating our emotions a holy status. The more people who will join us in this endeavour, the more real our belief in god becomes. In this way the god of the bibe has been made in the image of mankind.

  In the end it is all just words and our concept and understanding of love are in constant flux. The process is called life and any attempt to convert this phenomena into words ends in confusion and disappointment because the process is not dependant on words.

  Gladiator, this is very true. Human's often try to fashion God into something they can understand. They understand the way man handles problems and it is often with fear and punishment that men deal with problems. We cannot and will not really understand God while here on this earth, not in the "accurate" way that the WTBTS insists we can.

  I do have faith that the real God is love.

  And I still am trying to make the point: fear is a bad and mostly ineffectual way for religions to try to motivate people into making the right decisions.
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  caliber

  FHN,

  I have taken over- nite to ponder your response to my post above .. I concede that you are right !

  Fearing a fall or lightening or fire is not the same as fearing your heavenly father. Children should not fear that a parent will hurt or destroy them

  Love and fear are not like a scale of justice or a teeter-totter or a two sided coin !

  Love is said to be a perfect bond of union.. therefore it is like a magnet that repels in fear

  or else attracts like the bond of true love !

  1 John 4:18 (New International Version)

  18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

  “The fear [reverence] of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.” —Psalm 111:10

  REVERENCE HAS BEEN defined as respectful awe, veneration; a truly humble attitude toward God and holy things. First and foremost, this must be the attitude of every child of God toward the great all-wise Creator, his Heavenly Father.

  The psalmist says, “God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.” (Ps. 89:7) This is a primary quality that must be possessed by all who would approach God acceptably, with any possibility of learning of him and his ways. None can approach God to learn of him and receive the first elements of the wisdom from above without this quality of reverence.

  so just as the word love have many facets of meaning... so does fear in this meaning it does not mean trembling

  or afraid or such but a REVERENCE..... awe..... respect...child-like attitude to ones father !

  Perfect love indeed throws fear (the trembling kind) outside !

  Thank you for sticking to your guns.. pushing me to gain the proper understanding !

  Caliber
• 

  FlyingHighNow

  Thank you for sticking to your guns.. pushing me to gain the proper understanding !

  Caliber

  You're welcome, Cal. I think the Bible translators who use the word fear, rather than the words reverence or respect, had an agenda or at the time they translated the passages perhaps fear had a differing meaning than it does today. Just as gay used to mean joy and happiness and today people will think you mean homosexual when use the word gay to describe someone or something.

  Personally, I think the term or word fear should be dropped by non-fundamentalists when speaking of God. The use of the word fear really separates the fundamentalist approach to God, salvation and spirituality from a more enlightened understanding of the God of Love.

  I have noticed that fundamentalists, including JW's, will dance all around themselves to explain that they mean the kind of fear a child has of its parents, but then try to scare themselves and others with hell, torture, eternal unconciousness and Armeggedon.
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  bebu

  Hi-ho, FHN! I've been away for a long time. My thoughts are:

  Is fear of God another way of meaning a belief in justice, or judgment? Because that is pretty much what our fear of God gets down to: is He angry due to our evil behavior? If Jesus said we had to forgive each other if we hoped for God's forgiveness, then I would be afraid of keeping score.

  And another question: well then, what SHOULD we fear? Is fear always bad?? What is fear used for, sensibly speaking? Eg, should I never fear volcanoes, hurricanes, war, drunk drivers, meteorites, and so forth? I live on the west coast, and don't really fear hurricanes, but I think I certainly would if I lived elsewhere. But are these things the things we are most to be concerned about? Do these have the ultimate impact on our destinies? Are we NEVER to fear anything, ever--or only bad things?

  But if bad things are the only things that should make us afraid, then what help can God ever give to help us be free of fear? I think that the gospel is a message to help us see that the bad things that kept power over us (because of our fear of them) are powerless before God. IOW, Death is nothing to be afraid of, because God is more powerful. So if at first we feared death because we were powerless before it, then knowing that God has defeated it should give us endless relief. --And paradoxically, even as we recognize that our fear of God should logically exceed our fear of death, He makes it clear that He intends to phase out the "fear factor". I see this in the way men in the OT would collapse when encountering angels, but then be strengthened in order to serve as God asked. At this point in our lives, collapsing is an aspect of fear. But eventually perfect love will truly cast out all fear. Fear is not eternal, as love is.

  In sum, it seems to me that either fear is a useless emotion that we all seem to have nonetheless. And either fear is always bad in the way we use it, and so we must always rid ourselves of it entirely, or else it may have applications that are proper at this point in time (but not necessarily forever).

  Hope y'all are doing well down south! Hope your weather isn't too awful.

  bebu
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  choosing life

  Caliber has a good point in using the word reverence rather than fear. "Perfect love throws fear outside." So, we are not to fear God in a way that a child fears an abusive parent. A parent that would threaten to injure or kill his child would certainly be considered abusive. If God threatens to do the same to his children, he would be no better than the abusive parent.

  Fear is used by most religions today. It doesn't matter what they make you afraid of, only that they truly do make you afraid. The watchtower likes to say they don't teach a burning hell, but their Armegeddon and eternal destruction is just as effective.

  In this life, we will never totally conquer fear. What we cannot control in life causes us fear and anxiety. Suffering, loss of a loved one and the ultimate fear of dying are all about a loss of control. These things can make us feel powerless. The more we trust God, the less we suffer from fear, but I don't think we can totally escape fear in this present life.

  I have always thought that dying is a total surrendering of ourselves into God's care. The ultimate leap of faith.
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  AGuest

  May you have peace!

  I want to clarify too, FHN and Aguest do you both base your beliefs on your own experiences of God rather than on the Bible/gospels?

  I cannot speak for FHN, but with regard to me, yes: although I have quoted Bible verses here (and have done so for those who need to see it in writing), my faith is based on my own experience(s) of God, through Christ, the Holy Spirit.

  Your servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
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  AGuest

  If you think your own judgement is better than the bible then go and agree with Aguest...

  No one should agree with me, for I am no better than anyones else. It is Christ, the Holy Spirit, that such ones' spirit should bear witness with. I'm just a servant... sharing what I receive. Take it... or leave it. The choice is always yours.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
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  AGuest

  I've pretty much decided that most of the "Bible" is trash and Jesus was wiser that he should ever have been. How could one man be so freakin' wise?

  "The things I say to you men I do not speak of my own originality, but the Father... who remains in union with me... is doing HIS works." John 14:10

  May you ALL have peace... not in the way that the world gives it, but in the way that God gives it, throught His Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.

  Your servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA