When were the Earliest Bible books composed?

by gaiagirl 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    hamsterbait....Actually the language used in Revelation is rather dreadful, filled with solecisms and ungrammatical expressions, so most scholars tend to believe that the author learned Greek as a second language and spoke Aramaic as his native language. The problem is that the same author could not be responsible for both the Revelation and the gospel of John, as the latter definitely has a very refined and cultivated style. This was noticed in antiquity by people who spoke Greek. Dionysius of Alexandria and Eusebius denied the same author wrote both books, the former saying that the gospel and 1 John "are composed not only in faultless Greek but with great skill in their expressions, their arguments, and the arrangement or their expositions", but as for the author of Revelation, "I will not deny that he had seen revelations and received knowledge and prophecy, but I notice that his dialect and language are not correct Greek; he makes use of barbarous constructions and sometimes of actual solecisms" (apud Eusebius, Historia Ecclesiastica, 7.25). The two books also have a very different religious thought, both eschatological and theological.

    Another issue is the fact that there were two different individuals named John, Apostle John and Elder John, whom Papias (who knew the latter personally) distinguished (apud Historia Ecclesiastica, 3.39). These two Johns were later confused with each other and conflated in later Christian tradition. Since 2, 3 John are attributed to the "Elder", it is probable that these were written by Elder John, not the Apostle John. But it is an incredibly thorny problem to try to sort out the relationship between 2, 3 John and 1 John, and between these epistles, the gospel, and Revelation. Some scholars attribute the gospel to Elder John and not Revelation, whereas other scholars attribute Revelation to Elder John and not the gospel. Since Elder John lived in Ephesus in Asia Minor and since the chiliasm of Revelation was popular in Phyrgia and was influential on Papias (who apparently was familiar with the book, if Andrew of Caesarea is to be believed), it is certainly more attractive to conclude that the Elder John was responsible in some way for the publication of Revelation. Since Revelation appears to incorporate an older apocalypse with parallels to the Zoroastrian/Jewish Oracles of Hystaspes (which was popular among Christians despite the fact that reading it incurred the death penalty, Justin Martyr, Apology 1.44.12), it is possible that Elder John revised a series of oracles written by someone else. As for the gospel of John, its provenance does not appear to be in Asia Minor but Syria, where we find the closest parallels in thought and content (i.e. in Ignatius of Antioch, the gospel of Thomas, and especially the Odes of Solomon). But it is also possible, on account of its inordinate focus on Jerusalem as opposed to Galilee, that its author was a Christian from Jerusalem (who published the gospel in Syria sometime subsequent to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70). Other problems include the oblique references to the "Beloved Disciple" (who in the context of the narrative appears to be Lazarus), the relationship of ch. 21 (with its references to the "Beloved Disciple") to the rest of the book, and the traditions in the East that the Apostle John was martyred with his brother in the early days of the Christian movement. It's a fascinating puzzle and I don't think I've seen a solution that is entirely satisfactory.

    The Society however doesn't delve into any of these issues -- the striking linguistic character of Revelation, the fact that there were two Johns, the problematic relationship between the books -- it simply takes for granted the tradition that the Apostle John was responsible for authoring all the Johannine books.

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    You are right Leo - its the other way round -

    Should have just rechecked before spouting off!!

    HB

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    Here is a good documentary on this topic and its sociopolitical implications for today:

    Who Wrote the Bible? Documentary

    Dave

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi leolaia you say moses writing pentateuch was a jewish tradition that moses wrote it but jesus comfirms this biblically...

    John 5:45-47 NIV

    45 "But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

    and certainly there are references to moses writing down the commandments and suchlike too? he could have got scribes to write for him or maybe some priest filled in the details at the end hmmmm.

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    And who wrote what "Jesus" said? How can you know you haven't been deceived by tradition unless you do some research?

    Dave

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    From the documentary:

    "Gaaad said it; that settles it; I believe it!" says the minister, Dr. Richard Land, who is an adviser to President Bush and has the presidential cuff links to prove it.

    This same Southern Baptist minister also went on to say, "Biblical truth is truth with a capital T."

    Dr. Robert Beckford, the narrator of the documentary, concludes with the words, "Ask questions and never have the wool pulled over your eyes."

    Dave

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    hi leolaia you say moses writing pentateuch was a jewish tradition that moses wrote it but jesus comfirms this biblically...

    This is an appeal to authority argument. It is not fallacious if the claim has its own independent basis apart from the authority. But if the claim has the authority as its only basis and substitutes for an actual evaluation of evidence (such that the appeal exempts the claim from criticism), it does not constitute a valid argument. In essence, it serves as a "trump card" that circumvents all the evidence to the contrary. You are certainly entitled to accept the claim on its face but the appeal does not "confirm" it without supposing a host of unfalsifiable assumptions.

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    One of my commentaries also says the story of how Isaac got his wife must have been written later, as it shows lack of knowledge of the times the events are purported to have happened.

    The camel is shown as generally domesticated at a period long before it was. Rebekah actually travels across to wed on a camel

    HB

  • Meeting Junkie No More
    Meeting Junkie No More

    Anyone here read The Book of J by Harold Bloom? Great info on this very topic; the many different writers of what eventually became known as (in some countries) the First Five Books of Moses; in others, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. One of the best books I've read - highly recommend it...wish I was smart enough to paraphrase but really, it is well worth the read - eye-popping to say the least...

  • Damocles
    Damocles

    Interesting topic. Makes me wish the board would continue for this sort of thing.

    Leolaia,

    On a slightly off-topic digression. If memory serves, the dubs make a distinction between 'Higher' and 'textual' criticism. Condemning the first and approving the second (providing no witnesses wasted their time on it). Yet, it seems to me that these subjects intersect quite a bit, at the least, and that most scholars doing one would reasonably be doing the other. Am I at all close?

    Thanks

    Damocles

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