Revelation 11:15-17

by DoomVoyager 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • DoomVoyager
    DoomVoyager

    This passage could be used to support trinitarian theology. From that bastion of scholarly Biblical exegesis, the New World Translation ():

    And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: "The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever."16 And the twenty-four elders who were seated before God upon their thrones fell upon their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king.

    Just wondering if any of our Watchtower historians / biblical scholars could inform me as to how the Washtowel distorts this scripture to fit their dogma? I looked it up on the WT Library and didn't find anything.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I checked the Revelation Climax book and it doesn't draw any christological implications from the passage.

    It is true that Revelation has a (subordinationist) binitarian christology that at least in its present form posits a close unity between Jesus and God: (1) the "Lord God Almighty and the Lamb" together comprise the eschatological "Temple" (21:22), (2) both the Father and the Lamb sit on the "Throne" (3:21, 7:17, 12:5, 22:3), (3) salvation belongs only to "our God who sits on the Throne and his Lamb" (7:10), (4) both the Lamb and the Lord God are called the First and the Last and the Alpha and the Omega (1:8, 17, 2:8, 21:6, 22:13; cf. Isaiah 41:4, 44:6, 48:12 in which "First and the Last" is an expression of Yahweh's uniqueness as God, which is clearly the inspiration of "Alpha and Omega"), (5) both the Lamb and the Lord God shine providing light in place of sunlight in New Jerusalem (21:23, 22:5), and so forth.

    It is however somewhat unclear what is meant in 11:15-17, as there is an apparent lack of grammatical agreement in v. 15: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of [our Lord and his Christ] (plural entity), and he (singular) will reign forever and ever". This phrasing is odd because if both are reigning together, the plural verb would be expected (and throughout Revelation, Jesus and God are separate entities); the third person singular future verb basileusei "he will reign" in v. 15 has as its antecedent either "Lord" or "his Christ" but not both. Thus it has been frequently suggested that "and his Christ" is a harmonizing gloss that inserts a reference to Christ in a passage that has only God in view. Indeed, there are many similar passages that are thought to be Christianizing additions, such as the tangential way the Lamb is mentioned in 15:3 ("They sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb", compare the ancillary way the Lamb is mentioned in 7:9-10, 22:1, 3). And the intertextuality latent in the passage clearly suggests that kurios "Lord" is what goes with basileusei (cf. Exodus 15:18 LXX, Psalm 10:16 LXX, Psalm 146:10 LXX, Zechariah 14:9 LXX, Wisdom 3:8, etc.), indicated as well by the statement in v. 17 that "Lord God" (kurie ho theos) has "begun to reign (ebasileusas)". So I think the passage isn't necessarily christologically meaningful, if "and his Christ" is a paranthetical gloss. However it may have an OT intertext of its own, as suggested by this comparison:

    Psalm 2:2 LXX: "The kings of the earth took their stand and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and his Christ" (kata tou kuriou kai kata tou khristou autou).

    Psalm 10:16 LXX: "The Lord will reign forever and ever" (basileusei kurios eis ton aióna kai eis ton aióna tou aiónós).

    Revelation 11:15: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and his Christ (tou kuriou kai tou khristou autou), and he will reign forever and ever (basileusei eis tous aiónas tón aiónón)".

  • lesterd
    lesterd

    Christ is a sub king, just as the 144000 are kings and princes

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Lesterd,

    Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of Lords. That hardly makes Him a sub king. Rev. 17:14 and 19:16

  • possible-san
    possible-san

    Hi, DoomVoyager.

    Nice to meet you.

    Probably, I think that your age is young and personal Bible study may also be insufficient.
    The dogma of Jehovah's Witnesses is clear as follows.

    *** w90 10/15 p. 19 par. 17 Be Thankful—Jehovah’s Messianic Kingdom Rules ***
    “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord [Jehovah] and of his Christ, and he [Jehovah] will rule as king forever and ever.” (Revelation 1:10; 4:1; 11:15)

    *** w80 12/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
    “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord [Jehovah] and of his Christ [or, one anointed by God], and he [Jehovah] will rule as king forever and ever.” Thus, the Messianic kingdom derives its power and authority from Jehovah, who is Universal Sovereign over all his creation.—Rev. 11:15; 4:11; John 5:19, 30.

    *** w74 6/15 p. 376 par. 6 Serve with Eternity in View ***
    God’s eternity also extends into the future. The writers of both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Greek Scriptures knew that God will never die, hence, that Jehovah will reign for all eternity to come. The psalmist proclaimed: “Jehovah is King to time indefinite [Heb., ‘ohlam], even forever [Heb., ‘adh].” (Ps. 10:16; Ex. 15:18) And in the final book of the Bible the apostle John quoted voices out of heaven that said about the Lord Jehovah: “He will rule as king forever and ever.” The writer John here used the plural form of the Greek phrase, which literally means “to the ages of the ages.” (Rev. 11:15; 1 Tim. 1:17) With regard to the future, then, John knew unquestionably that our Creator will reign “into the ages of the ages.” (Kingdom Interlinear Translation)

    *** wt chap. 10 pp. 93-94 par. 6 A Kingdom “That Will Never Be Brought to Ruin” ***
    After God’s Son was empowered to begin ruling as King, voices in heaven appropriately declared: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord [Jehovah God] and of his Christ, and he [Jehovah] will rule as king forever and ever.” (Revelation 11:15)

    *** uw chap. 10 pp. 79-80 par. 5 A Kingdom “That Will Not Be Brought to Ruin” ***
    Thus, after this Kingdom began to rule, voices in heaven appropriately declared: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord [Jehovah God] and of his Christ, and he [Jehovah] will rule as king forever and ever.” (Rev. 11:15)

    possible
    http://bb2.atbb.jp/possible/

  • DoomVoyager
    DoomVoyager
    personal Bible study may also be insufficient.

    Hey! What are you tryin' to say?

    Kidding. Thanks for the references. I see that they used the "and of his Christ" to conclude that both verses refer to Jehovah, and to his being a seperate entity from Christ, which does make some sense.

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d
    I see that they used the " and of his Christ" to conclude that both verses refer to Jehovah, and to his being a seperate entity from Christ, which does make some sense.

    Jesus is no relation to Jehovah.

    Jesus was a real person. jehovah is a ficticious compilation of OT gods dba as "THE Almighty".

  • possible-san
    possible-san

    DoomVoyager.

    You are a young boy.
    Therefore, do you get angry immediately?

    If you get angry immediately, you had better not write in here any longer.

    Both of Jehovah's Witnesses and Trinitarians can use that Scriptures.
    That's all.

    The dogma of Jehovah's Witnesses cannot be attacked in your explanation.

    possible
    http://bb2.atbb.jp/possible/

  • DoomVoyager
    DoomVoyager

    I'm not angry.

    Both of Jehovah's Witnesses and Trinitarians can use that Scriptures.
    That's all.

    This is why the Trinity interests me. I've made several threads on it during my time here. Specially selected texts can be used to either strongly support or strongly disprove the Trinity, depending on which texts you use. More so than any other doctrine, I find. If I was a believer, I don't even know whether or not I'd believe in a Trinity. Makes more sense to me to just call it all a load of bull and move on with your life.

  • possible-san
    possible-san

    I'm sorry, DoomVoyager.
    I was not able to understand your joke.

    I think that you are a great youth who investigates truth.

    I apologize for my impolite words.

    possible
    http://bb2.atbb.jp/possible/

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